Bonneville America Forums Forums Rider Safety Forums Riding Technique Braking while turning

Ok so I dumped it this year, and once last year. A simple lay down both times, similar circumstances. Turning to the right, going to fast, touched brakes, lay down, slam. Once, wet pavement was involved and I was going 70, so that was understandable, although I almost poo-poo'd in my pants as I narrowly went between two firmly planted road signs. The second time there was likely a little oil on the ground as it is a place where cars get slowed down in heavy traffic. My question, when I need to brake in a corner, what proportion of front to rear brakes?? I would think no rear brake???

I'd suggest you also start practicing the idea of "late apexing", Darren. This practice will usually assure that you will need less braking mid-turn and thus a far less chance of you going wide into the turn and less need for mid-turn braking.

If you're not sure of what "late apexing" means, then I'll explain:

Every corner or turn in the road has a point at which it's the most pronounced outward point...that's it's apex. And so always try to arrive closest to the curb or the edge of the road on the most distant part of that point from you in your turn and not before that mid-point. This is accomplished by "staying wide" or on the outside part of the lane opposite the corner as late as possible and then making a sharper and more pronounced initial turn from there. This will also let you get on the throttle earlier in that turn with more confidence in your tire's traction.

In other words, you'll already be more upright earlier into the turn, because you have done your initial banking much earlier and you will not need to make mid-turn speed corrections with your brakes as often, if ever, which is something you should try to avoid a much as possible because braking mid-turn will always straighten you more upright and change the weight-distribution of both you and your bike, both sideways and also forward and aft. And this will happen no matter if you apply the front, or the rear, or both at mid-turn, which will de-stabilize your smooth inertia and lessen or change your tire's contact patch going through that turn. Not good.

The type of braking you're talking about, in the middle of a corner, is the most dangerous. Trail braking, when you do most of your braking while upright and hold them on until about halfway through the turn, is much safer. But if you get into the turn too hot, you can sometimes use a little rear brake, without backing off the gas, to reign it in. Scarey as it sounds, though, the best way often is to just lean it over further. Many times your tires can handle more cornering force than you think.
In the dry.
Rain changes everything.
One of the best things I've found in the rain is to adjust the idle speed lower, like 900-1000rpm. Because this lets the slide close further, you have more engine braking, and just backing off the gas slows you down a lot. You'll have to blip the throttle at stoplights, though, or it'll stall.

I agree with Dwight, but would add that "late apexing" also allows you a longer view around the turn, and that your speed should be no greater than the distance required to stop within your view of the road. So, if you are going into a turn that you can only see 200 feet of (before you lose sight of the road), then your speed should be no greater than what it would take you to stop in 200 feet.

You can apply brakes during a turn, but on wet and oily roads this really limits you. On dry roads and in a turn I will only brake with my front (if needed), but then I try to brake with my front almost all the time. Under most conditions I only use my rear brakes when I absolutely have to. If the road is oily or has gravel/sand then using the front brake will create problems. At this point just try rolling off the gas slowly, and counter steer more.

It is best to be at a speed just prior to entering the turn that allows you to slowly accelerate through the turn, thus pushing your rear tire into the turn. When you brake with your rear, the rear tire will lift, because you just transfered most of your weight to the front, which makes it easier in a turn for the rear wheel to lose contact with the road. Letting off the gas in a turn will transfer weight forward also, so if you feel you need to roll off the gas slowly.

Tom

By braking early and practicing the late apex entry you can also better control those little surprises on unfamiliar roads, like the dreaded "decreasing radius, off camber" curve with a truckload of hay coming the other way .

Can I also add if you need at anytime to hit those brakes while you are in the bend DO NOT TOUCH THE FRONT BRAKE, GENTLY USE THE REAR.

I have mistaken a few bends in my life and have learnt the hard way..

Have you ever thought about selling your bike and giving up motorcycling?

" Have you ever thought about selling your bike and giving up motorcycling?"

Lock down the rear tire, shift your body weight to the right, turn your handlbars to the left, let off the brake, slam down into 1st or 2nd gear and nail it. If the front tire comes off the ground, shift your body weight to the left and "cross it up" in front of all your friends...Your sure to be a hit....

I know what you're saying Ray. Once it's loose, your goose, is cooked (sorry).

I think that if you have to brake in a corner, it's because something unexpected happened and you're going to be in high stress mode. (That is, where inexperience will cause panic).

You (or at least I) have much better feel on the front brakes then the rear, hence the rears are easier to lock up. And when you're already leaned over, a lockup is a crackup .

"any gomer can twist a throttle."

I like this...!

Mother Nature has certain laws of physics. You break them, the payment is usually painful.

There is only one thing more dangerous than braking while cornering & thats holding the clutch in while cornering, when I see this being done it makes me shudder.

Braking in a bend is usually not a good thing, but sometimes you have no choice. All you can do is apply bad weather tactics, applying the brakes as slowly and gently as possible. Use both brakes because you get more drag from less effort. You can slow safely with both brakes at a rate that would guarantee a skid using one brake. I've found playing in the dirt that it is much easier to recover from a sliding rear tire than a front. But, if there is any chance the rear might lock up, pull in the clutch! Otherwise, a rear lockup kills the engine and that, in turn, can keep the rear sliding.

A lot of great advice on braking and cornering techniques. I see myself as a pretty green rider with only 20,000 miles of mostly commute time. Even though I get to see varied driving daily (over a twisty mountain road that leads to highway then to residential and back). I’m still experiencing new things all the time and sometimes the curves fell different than what I usually experience same turn same speed but they just don’t feel right.
I had the rear brake lockup on a 30 mph marked turn that was wet from the fog and in the middle remembered about high-siding and stayed on the brake and started applying front brake. I didn’t have any engine brake left at that point.
The bike came to a stop off the road, in the gravel. I didn’t like that feeling at all.
I think I have used lower gears on all turns ever since.
While Cornering , I feel like I have the most braking advantage and control when cornering when I use engine braking going in and power band gearing leaving the apex. Using lower gears uses a little more fuel but, your pads and rotors last longer and the bike sounds better.
Gary

I also use engine braking immediately BEFORE the turn, if possible, and try to get an idea of what gear my bike will 'like' given the radius and length of the turn or curve. I did almost go down once when I down shifted from 4th to 2nd too late IN the middle of a curve and locked up the rear for a moment on some gravel.

When I am approaching the turn or curve (even stopped at a traffic light) I always think to myself " OUTSIDE - INSIDE - OUTSIDE ." Meaning exactly what Dwight was refering to ie... Start and continue my turn from the 'outside' (of my lane) to the apex, BUT always looking with my head towards the "inside."
After reaching the apex, I slowly accelerate across towards the "inside" and then exiting the turn I increase my acceleration and steer slowly back to the "outside." This late apex turn will let me see what hazards I am turning into earlier. It will also keep me from forcing myself too wide and running out of road trying to do an imposible turn because I improperly started out on the inside.

I went down once when a car pulled out in front of me as I was in the middle of a slow turn. A panic stop before you can staighten the bike up and it just will drop. I've never been real sure of what else a person can do when this happens.

You are kdding us? You have dumped you cycle twice in a relatively short time?

You are not a defensive rider by nature and should stop riding. No Offense meant.

okiebob said - "BUT always looking with my head towards the "inside.""

The head turn to the inside practice continues to amaze me cause its like magic how the bike just seems and feels like its just following your head. This time of year my commute up hill hairpin often has a stream of water crossing the road and you better be prepaired if it is. If it is flowing, you immediately get a second apex to deal with in the same turn so you better have some engine brake left.
Gary

Thanks a lot for your positive comments, jerk. If you cant be helpful, be quiet.

Darren,to be fair, you do fall off once a year. Is it possible you have a depth perception problem? You seem to be entering way too fast needing to brake mid turn. Other than engine braking if you brake mid curve you are very liable to low side if you use the rear brake. A very light touch on the front to take off speed but I dunno.

You will learn apex driving once you slow down and learn it. You drive too fast. I hope you slow down because it may not end well.

Good luck.

Here we go again. I get a lot of flak for this, but:

There are tons of cheap ($500-$1000) used dirt bikes out there that can help you.

The lessons you learn on a 150lb mini-bike do translate to bigger bikes.

And, if you do something stupid, you fall down in grass and dirt at 20 mph.

You can try braking in a corner without getting run over by a Buick.

You don't have to try and be a Supercross rider, just push the limits of a bike whose limits are within reach.

Plus, goofing around in the mud on a mini-bike is fun.
So there.

Actually I correct myself, it has been twice since 2005. I knwo I am riding it a little hard and love the speed. I appreciate those who have given help rather than slander. Thanks.

Quote:

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I know I am riding it a little hard and love the speed.

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Ah ha!!!
Yeah, it's a lot of fun pushing the twisties, I fully understand.
Could be you're just exceeding the bike's limits.
Even though these do handle great considering what they are, what they are not is sport bikes.
Back off a little and stay on the rubber.

Maybe find a used CBR to add to the stable for a little knee draggin' action

And then there is just plain stupidity. I was tired from a long ride (1.) and cutting across a crowded supermarket parking lot on Saturday(2) when a lady in one of those godawful right wheel drive Sterling(Hondas) came charging up the wrong way aisle and I would have T-boned her. My wheel was turned and I hit the front brake too hard and went down with one foot on the ground to keep from dropping the bike, with a madly revving engine. ("Sorry," she said,"I didn't see you."

But it was all my fault even though I know better, sometimes I don't do better. The only saving grace was I was going slow, about 20. No harm done except to my pride. Lots of lessons here.

"Sorry, I didn't see you"???!!!

(never heard that before)

Wait a minute here, Dick! "Righthand-drive Sterling"???!!! "Came charging up the wrong way"???!!!


You see people, THIS is why those darn Limeys should NEVER be allowed behind the wheel over here while they're buyin' up all this stuff now that the U.S.Dollar ain't worth crap anymore!!!!!

This is a great discussion, but now I'm in a quandry...if I do go into a corner too fast and have to brake, what do I use -- front or back brake?? Since it looks like there's disadvantages to either one, should I stick to the normal technique and use both??

I don't know how correct this is but I use the both brakes (probably more front than rear but it's just a reflex) and load the suspension, then lean some more and apply some throttle to settle the bike. Less throttle just stands you up and gets you into more trouble. More often than not though I engine brake before the turn to a speed I think is lower than necessary so I can apply throttle in the turn, it's just more fun that way.

By all rights you should never break in a turn you should do all your breaking before you enter the turn and accelerate through it.

Too hot? Countersteer MORE, stay steady on the throttle, and LOOK wher you want the bike to go. If you panic chances are you will not have the skill to save the corner-trust the bike-then stop and clean yourself up 'cause you'll need it!

King of Fleece:

I think that's good advice...I guess the idea is that if your too fast in the turn you might want to brake but in reality it's too late for that and you need to ride it out

"When in doubt, Gas It! It may not solve the problem, but it WILL end the suspense! "

I kid, I kid!

These bikes lean quite well. You can drag bits and still have a ways to go before you lose it.

Yeah, the only bummer is when riding on the the kick stand lever lifts the rear tire. Yes, I puckered right up...

Hitting the breaks in a turn tends to stand the bike up-not what you want. Wanna learn how to trail break? Go take a track day class with a pro-otherwise IMO it's not possible for the average, or even above average street rider to be able to pull off. Yopu might also want to learn about trailing throttle-this REALLY helps set the bike up.

One more thing. I ride almost every week with a guy on a hopped up VTX 1800. This thing FLYS! Anyway, he shows sparks all day. Moral? In a pinch, trust the bike. It'll scare ther heck out of you but you're alive.