 Performance tuning- 865cc Speedmaster dyno results
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Hi Guys, We realise that info on the 865cc Speedmaster`s performance capabilities have been very limited to say the least. After a lot of time and effort we can now show you some of our results. PLEASE understand that this is very much a work in progress scenario and are reported here just as we have found them. We plan to test the camshafts on the 790cc when time allows. Before any fine tuning has been completed our results for today are.(all figures rwbhp) 865cc Speedmaster; Stock. 52 Stock with our pipes only. 56 Flowed and modified ports, increased c.r. only, std. pipes 58 Flowed and modified ports, increased c.r., cams, std. pipes. 64 Flowed and modified ports, increased c.r., cams, std. pipes, snorkel removed. 66 Flowed and modified ports, increased c.r., cams, T.bike pipes, snorkel fitted, std. jetting. 72 Flowed and modified ports, increased c.r., cams, T.bike pipes, snorkel removed, std. jetting (too lean). 72 Flowed and modified ports, increased c.r., cams, T.bike pipes, snorkel removed, 125 mains. 73 Flowed and modified ports, increased c.r., cams, T.bike pipes, snorkel and air filter removed, 140 mains. 74 With the Thunderbike pipes fitted only, the torque increases throughout the rev range but the breathless nature of the motor at higher rpm means the improvements do not translate into a significantly higher bhp figure. More work is required and will be carried out over the next week or so. The torque output has grown significantly and is very flat with no problems at all, we are very pleased with results so far. I hope this provides some food for thought and some discussion amongst you guys. We haven`t as yet dynoed a std. bike with Tbike pipes with the snorkel removed - hopefully soon though. Cheers Graeme www.Thunderbike.co.nz
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Re: Performance tuning- 865cc Speedmaster dyno results
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Greetings RCV,
Thanks for the post!! Could you elaborate on some of these mods? What did you do to the ports? Increase the compression ratio-was this done with a thinner head gasket, different pistons or shaving the head and what was the c.r. of the bike that was dynoed? Also could you provide us with some info about the cams?
Thanks
Rapid Reverend
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Re: Performance tuning- 865cc Speedmaster dyno res
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Loquacious
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(Former)05 BA tbike pipes, ai removed, Freak, mikuni hsr 42's, 904, ported/polished head, 1mm oversized valves
NOW-2010 silver and black tbird
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Re: Performance tuning- 865cc Speedmaster dyno results
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Should be Riding
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Any plans on removing the airbox entirely?
Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
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Re: Performance tuning- 865cc Speedmaster dyno results
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Quote:
Greetings RCV,
Thanks for the post!! Could you elaborate on some of these mods? What did you do to the ports? Increase the compression ratio-was this done with a thinner head gasket, different pistons or shaving the head and what was the c.r. of the bike that was dynoed? Also could you provide us with some info about the cams?
Thanks
Rapid Reverend
Hi Rev, The work we have been doing to ports has been carried out by one of the guys who was previously in our service dept. and before that the main engine guy for the Rizla Suzuki British Superbike team. We reckon our heads will be unlike any others out there and are keeping the actual details of the mods under our hats for the time being. I can tell you though that the std. gaskets are used.
With regard to the camshafts, the std. 865cc items are shocking, affectionatly known to us as the cement mixer/lawnmower grind - like NO overlap, totally none! . This particular prototype cam we are using is a modified std. item, we intend to produce cams from billet steel eliminating core charge and waiting for turnaround items etc.
Cheers
Graeme
www.Thunderbike.co.nz
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Re: Performance tuning- 865cc Speedmaster dyno results
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Quote:
Any plans on removing the airbox entirely?
Not at the moment but we have been comparing figures with a Wiseco kitted bike we did last year to which we fitted a Freak Kit and the signs indicate that it would be a very worthwhile mod.
Cheers
Graeme
www.Thunderbike.co.nz
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Re: Performance tuning- 865cc Speedmaster dyno res
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Quote:
what he ^ said
Frank
See above ;-)
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Re: Performance tuning- 865cc Speedmaster dyno res
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Seems the cam is where the biggest improvmant was, or at least AS big as any and bigger than most. Any idea why triumph used a cam like that? I thought it was for torque, but you seem to insinuate it's holding it back big time. Torque too? Would slipping a cam in there require other changes or would it be plug and play? Would a 790 cam work?
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Re: Performance tuning- 865cc Speedmaster dyno res
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Quote:
Seems the cam is where the biggest improvmant was, or at least AS big as any and bigger than most. Any idea why triumph used a cam like that? I thought it was for torque, but you seem to insinuate it's holding it back big time. Torque too? Would slipping a cam in there require other changes or would it be plug and play? Would a 790 cam work?
790 cams would help but they are different from ours. The cams will be straightforward drop in fella`s that will be available for all twins.
Triumph are moving slowly forward with the development of the twins which will one day be 1000cc or over perhaps. Its all about reliability and reputation, which they have retained very well.
From 5000rpm on the std. 865 motor is effectively fading in torque output.
Cheers
Graeme
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Re: Performance tuning- 865cc Speedmaster dyno results
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Should be Riding
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Thanks! My airbox is removed and I'm contemplating the big bore some day too, so it's always nice to know what the before/after is on all the different combinations of mods.
Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
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Re: Performance tuning- 865cc Speedmaster dyno res
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Worn Saddle
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Graeme, Hey bud, thanks for the shirt by the way.  Could you offer some insight as to what you ended up doing with your Wiseco bike and freak? Info about things like jet size and needles would be very much appreciated. I have also ported my heads too along with the Wiseco 904. If you have any dyno results I am also curious as to what you ended up with on this particular setup.
A word to the wise is not necessary. It is the stupid ones who need the advice.
Pat
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Re: Performance tuning- 865cc Speedmaster dyno res
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Anyone know if the 865 SM is different in any other ways from the 790 aside from the cam and displacment? Timing maybe? I still don't understand why triumph chose to use the cam the did with the 05 if it's so dismal. Makes me wonder if it would possibly be very beneficial to change it. I saw 2 posts at RAT from 790 speedy owners who said they got thier front wheels off the ground after removing the snorkel. I can't imagine mine doing that even as much improved as it is at the moment with pipes and snorkel off.
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Re: Performance tuning- 865cc Speedmaster dyno res
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thats pretty good increases, but wouldnt a 790 with all those mods make more? its weird how de tuned that 865 is. are the cams the only real main difference? i wonder if the pistons are any different
Frank
(Former)05 BA tbike pipes, ai removed, Freak, mikuni hsr 42's, 904, ported/polished head, 1mm oversized valves
NOW-2010 silver and black tbird
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Re: Performance tuning- 865cc Speedmaster dyno res
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Quote:
thats pretty good increases, but wouldnt a 790 with all those mods make more? its weird how de tuned that 865 is. are the cams the only real main difference? i wonder if the pistons are any different
i wish i new, but everything i've read suggests the displacment, cam and jetting are the only differences. It seems that the extra cc's and the cam were done in order to boost torque without having to bring the motor out of it's mildly tuned state to achieve it. But from all descriptions they 2 engines feels so close people who've ridden both say they couldn't tell a diff. I sure would love to hear right from the mouths of those triumph engineers who were responsible for the change just why they did it and in what way it improved the speedy if any.
Anyway, it's when modding that the 790's seem to have the advantage. But on the other hand the 865 may make more torque with mods than the 790, who knows. All i do know for sure is that mine improved a heck of a lot with the pipes and snorkel removal. I'd have to ride a modded 790 before i'd believe 100% those mods would make a bigger difference than they did for me.
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Re: Performance tuning- 865cc Speedmaster dyno res
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my 790 with t bike pipes and no snorkle would blow away a stock 865 speedmaster. i rode my dealers demo and was very dissapointed in it. especially with the smaller sproket and tourque. but who knows maybe there is a lot of potential in that 865. but for now i will keep my 790 and maybe make it a 904  frank
(Former)05 BA tbike pipes, ai removed, Freak, mikuni hsr 42's, 904, ported/polished head, 1mm oversized valves
NOW-2010 silver and black tbird
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Re: Performance tuning- 865cc Speedmaster dyno res
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why are the HP figures so much higher for the Thruxton. Are they rear wheel figures, so that weight becomes a factor?
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Re: Performance tuning- 865cc Speedmaster dyno res
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Quote:
why are the HP figures so much higher for the Thruxton. Are they rear wheel figures, so that weight becomes a factor?
Hi, All figures quoted by manufacturers are usually measured from the crankshaft, all of ours are directly from the rear wheel and include transmission losses, alternators and water pumps etc. where applicable.
I`m at home at the moment so I cant quote exact figures but the std. Thruxton doesn`t really make a whole lot more from memory.
Cheers
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Re: Performance tuning- 865cc Speedmaster dyno res
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Quote:
Quote:
thats pretty good increases, but wouldnt a 790 with all those mods make more? its weird how de tuned that 865 is. are the cams the only real main difference? i wonder if the pistons are any different
i wish i new, but everything i've read suggests the displacment, cam and jetting are the only differences. It seems that the extra cc's and the cam were done in order to boost torque without having to bring the motor out of it's mildly tuned state to achieve it. But from all descriptions they 2 engines feels so close people who've ridden both say they couldn't tell a diff. I sure would love to hear right from the mouths of those triumph engineers who were responsible for the change just why they did it and in what way it improved the speedy if any.
Anyway, it's when modding that the 790's seem to have the advantage. But on the other hand the 865 may make more torque with mods than the 790, who knows. All i do know for sure is that mine improved a heck of a lot with the pipes and snorkel removal. I'd have to ride a modded 790 before i'd believe 100% those mods would make a bigger difference than they did for me.
First of all it really is true about the 790-v-865 with the mods referred to hence our,
a: Enthusiasm for our instant hot-rod transformation of a relatively mundane performer (790)
b: Our disappointment in the lesser reaction of the 865 to the same changes - hence our cam development programme etc.
We had sooo much fun on the originals once we had fitted pipes and got the hang of the riding style required (for charging around)- the surge of power at the higher rpm especially is quite addictive and made scratching a lot more fun than it should be on this type of bike.
Your first point regarding the boys at Triumph must give consideration to the fact that they have to not only work within very strict noise regulations but also more importantly they are working with a relatively large capacity air cooled twin with carbs, quite unusual these days, and have incredibly stringent emission control regulations around the world to comply with hence their choice.
Reliability and reputation are being carefully maintained at the same time.
Cheers
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Re: Performance tuning- 865cc Speedmaster dyno res
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Graeme,
Hey bud, thanks for the shirt by the way.
Could you offer some insight as to what you ended up doing with your Wiseco bike and freak? Info about things like jet size and needles would be very much appreciated.
I have also ported my heads too along with the Wiseco 904.
If you have any dyno results I am also curious as to what you ended up with on this particular setup.
No worries, If you`d like to drop an email at work I can check out the results and forward them to you. The peak bhp was higher than what we have just done but the shape of the curve was still more like the normal modded 790 than our modded 865. We still have the airbox on the 865 but the owner is interested in having the lower portion below the filter removed for more airflow as a compromise.
I remember now that we fitted a dynojet kit and a high rpm cdi unit as well. It was a blast to ride!! It is so cool to have a Triumph Twin that burns Harleys - there are a high proportion of them here and the owner loves it, but I`m sure you already know what that feels like...
Cheers
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Re: Performance tuning- 865cc Speedmaster dyno res
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You say you fitted new ignition to your Speedmaster?? If I may ask, where did you get your black box from? Was the black box made specifically for the Triumph, or was it a custom installation?? How high can your speedmaster spin, with your new ignition?
Michael D. Rodriguez
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Re: Performance tuning- 865cc Speedmaster dyno res
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I remember now that we fitted a dynojet kit and a high rpm cdi unit as well.
Please tell us more about the cdi unit. Max RPMs, install etc. I have BB, cams and have been looking for increased RPMs.
Thanks
"They don't call it a SPEEDMASTER for nothin"
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Re: Performance tuning- 865cc Speedmaster dyno res
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You say you fitted new ignition to your Speedmaster?? If I may ask, where did you get your black box from? Was the black box made specifically for the Triumph, or was it a custom installation?? How high can your speedmaster spin, with your new ignition?
Hi, Yes we did have one modified to allow higher rpm which was an excellent addition to the riding experience allowing a much wider spread of power. We had it increased from 7900 to 8900 I believe and it rocked, unfortunately though sometimes when it hit the limiter the ignition would cut sometimes until it stopped the motor and required a second or 2 to come back to a useable condition. Further investigation revealed that the 270 motor fires the cylinders too close together and the electronics become muddled - confused - whatever and cry enough. The 360 motor can be revved way higher than that with no issues, so the bike now runs std. ignition again which is a bit of a shame, an opening for someone perhaps?.
Cheers
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Re: Performance tuning- 865cc Speedmaster dyno res
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Saddle Sore
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Graeme,
On behalf of all the rabid performance seekers on this site, thank you for your continuing efforts to get the most out of these sweet bikes. Thanks for sharing the results as well.
Perhaps when you have finished testing all of these possible combinations, you could post this info on your website. My '03 TA is running strong and the TBike pipes are on to stay, but I (and everyone else on here!)would be curious to see your test results for all the combinations of pipes, cams, jets, settings, etc.. for both the 790 and the 865 engines....
Just an idea....
More flags
More fun!
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Re: Performance tuning- 865cc Speedmaster dyno res
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RCV, thanks for coming back, now I've got a few more questions for you, if you don't mind. You say you increased the rev limit to 8900, is that where the electronics got confused with the firing order? How did the ignition / engine pull at say, 8500 or 8600 RPM?? Besides the rev limit, did you dabble at all with the advance curves, and if you did, were the Throttle Position Sensors still in use?? And your black box itself, is this something like Accell or MSD that's readily available?? Ditto what Grump said, good to have the Pioneers looking into this stuff, keep up the good work!
Michael D. Rodriguez
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Re: Performance tuning- 865cc Speedmaster dyno res
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Just wanted to bump this im[portant thread before it goes away and also to see if Graeme is still lurking and has any news since he last posted. Are the cams going to be available soon? Any cost info?
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Quote:
Just wanted to bump this im[portant thread before it goes away and also to see if Graeme is still lurking and has any news since he last posted. Are the cams going to be available soon? Any cost info?
 
Just out of the machine shop and off to the cam grinder today....
Road and dyno testing shall commence asap.
It sure has taken longer than we hoped but these are complex cams to manufacture. In case you were not aware the Triumph Twin cams do not have removable gears and have to be manufactured as one piece items. A further complication is the allowance for the transferral of the spring loaded noise quietening split gear assembly from the original cams (which are not shown in these images), this has proven to be quite a task, completed to our satisfaction now though I must add.
My apologies friends for my lack of recent communication on the site here but it really has been full on here of late, thank you once again for your words of encouragement we really do appreciate them.
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Re: Performance tuning- 865cc Speedmaster dyno res
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Graeme,
Thanks for the reply. My 05' speedy is setup as follows.....
Your pipes
uni filter
bottom of airbox and uni opened up
snorkel removed
rejetted to TBS needles shimmed to mimick the length of the stock needles with one shim and 130 mains
AI removed
I'm estimating i've gained probably a minimum of 8 HP and probably 1 or 2 more than that judging by your tests and what snorkel removal felt like and what the rest of the step by step gains i've gradually gotten felt like compared to removing the snorkel which your tests showed gained 2 HP. Now what i'm dying to know is this...
1)-will i be able to simply swap this cam with no other tweaks or adjustments besides rejetting (which is to b expected)
2)-will i have to send my old cam to you (afraid to hear the answer but i think i know after reading the part about the spring loaded noise quietening split gear assembly)
3)-approximatly what will the price be
4)- the BIG one...how much of a gain do you think it will get me with just what i've done so far and no other mods
PLEASE answer all of the questions if possible, tho i realize you won't necassarily know #3, but a ballpark figure would be nice at least. Thanks.
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Re: Performance tuning- 865cc Speedmaster dyno res
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Quote:
Graeme,
Thanks for the reply. My 05' speedy is setup as follows.....
Your pipes
uni filter
bottom of airbox and uni opened up
snorkel removed
rejetted to TBS needles shimmed to mimick the length of the stock needles with one shim and 130 mains
AI removed
I'm estimating i've gained probably a minimum of 8 HP and probably 1 or 2 more than that judging by your tests and what snorkel removal felt like and what the rest of the step by step gains i've gradually gotten felt like compared to removing the snorkel which your tests showed gained 2 HP. Now what i'm dying to know is this...
1)-will i be able to simply swap this cam with no other tweaks or adjustments besides rejetting (which is to b expected)
You will need to have your valve clearances rechecked upon assembly - thats it.
2)-will i have to send my old cam to you (afraid to hear the answer but i think i know after reading the part about the spring loaded noise quietening split gear assembly)
You will certainly not have to send us anything except perhaps your visa card number!
3)-approximatly what will the price be
Not determined at this time, if there is change from $900US we will be very pleased, please remember these are not built up re-ground items but a difficult to manufacture pair of drop in steel cams with no core charge or downtime included in the deal.
4)- the BIG one...how much of a gain do you think it will get me with just what i've done so far and no other mods
8-10bhp with a 20-ish% gain in torque throughout the range - without the post 5000rpm fade
PLEASE answer all of the questions if possible, tho i realize you won't necassarily know #3, but a ballpark figure would be nice at least. Thanks.
I`ve answered as accurately as I can in the meantime, once we conduct further testing on variously tuned bikes , including std. bikes I can answer more accurately.
Thanks for asking though, cheers.
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Re: Performance tuning- 865cc Speedmaster dyno res
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Quote:
Triumph Twin cams do not have removable gears and have to be manufactured as one piece items.
Graeme, I thought hese cam gears were press on items on the standard cams?
Cheers........Agro
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Quote:
I`ve answered as accurately as I can in the meantime, once we conduct further testing on variously tuned bikes , including std. bikes I can answer more accurately
Thanks Graeme. 8-10 HP sounds pretty good. Should put the bike in a state that would make me utterly happy. The cost however may keep me from doing it, not to mention that i don't think i'd trust myself OR the dealer to do it. (dealer for other reasons than capabilty)
But i'm not counting myself out just yet. Probably out, but not 100%. In any case, i'm anxious to see your results
But heres a question thats got me puzzled. In the initial post in this thread you gave results at the various stages. At one point you list the cams and thier contribution. From what you say this new cam you just recieved is the first one you've gotten. So what cam were you using in those original tests that showed improvments when you added them?
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Quote:
heres a question thats got me puzzled. In the initial post in this thread you gave results at the various stages. At one point you list the cams and thier contribution. From what you say this new cam you just recieved is the first one you've gotten. So what cam were you using in those original tests that showed improvments when you added them?
Original testing was conducted with built up and reground original versions till a suitable combination was determined. The 900 cams do not have enough metal on them for a simple regrind unfortunately, the 800 probably might but not for an optimal profile - I doubt it unless you had access to some very thick shims from somewhere, not an ideal situation. Our aim with these is to make things as straightforward as possible.
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Quote:
Graeme,
Hey bud, thanks for the shirt by the way.
Could you offer some insight as to what you ended up doing with your Wiseco bike and freak? Info about things like jet size and needles would be very much appreciated.
I have also ported my heads too along with the Wiseco 904.
If you have any dyno results I am also curious as to what you ended up with on this particular setup.
Hi, I`m a bit behind with forum chat these days I`m afraid, just email me direct if you need to ask any info Dinqua. Have you got a fax machine? I`ve got a print out here with some info. 160 mains, dynojet kit and freak. Wiseco and head work. 64lbft@5750rpm 75bhp@6750rpm
Hope that is of some help to you.
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Re: Performance tuning- 865cc Speedmaster dyno res
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The ignition was a modified black box from Jojjie in Europe. It revved to 8900.
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Quote:
You say you fitted new ignition to your Speedmaster?? If I may ask, where did you get your black box from? Was the black box made specifically for the Triumph, or was it a custom installation?? How high can your speedmaster spin, with your new ignition?
The ignition was a modified black box from Jojjie in Europe. It revved to 8900
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Quote:
Quote:
I remember now that we fitted a dynojet kit and a high rpm cdi unit as well.
Please tell us more about the cdi unit. Max RPMs, install etc. I have BB, cams and have been looking for increased RPMs.
Thanks
The black box rpms were increased to 8900 and was supplied by Jojjie in Europe. Unfortunately there can be some hiccups with the 270 version though, fun till it hits the limiter I found, delays returning the spark. The 360`s rev as high as you`d like but it seems the sparks are too close for comfort on the 270 and they can become a little confused occasionally.
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Posts: 100
Adjunct
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OP
Adjunct
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 100 |
Quote:
RCV, thanks for coming back, now I've got a few more questions for you, if you don't mind. You say you increased the rev limit to 8900, is that where the electronics got confused with the firing order? How did the ignition / engine pull at say, 8500 or 8600 RPM?? Besides the rev limit, did you dabble at all with the advance curves, and if you did, were the Throttle Position Sensors still in use?? And your black box itself, is this something like Accell or MSD that's readily available?? Ditto what Grump said, good to have the Pioneers looking into this stuff, keep up the good work!
Hi Michael, see above for some of the info you require. We only had a problem upon hitting the limiter and only sometimes, you could get one without a limiter. The TPS was still connected and in std position. I must say that the difference the extended rev ceiling made to the riding experience was excellent and the modified motor really liked to rev.
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Re: Performance tuning- 865cc Speedmaster dyno res
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,753
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,753 |
those are some impresive dyno numbers. how much did it fall off after peaking?
Frank
(Former)05 BA tbike pipes, ai removed, Freak, mikuni hsr 42's, 904, ported/polished head, 1mm oversized valves
NOW-2010 silver and black tbird
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Re: Performance tuning- 865cc Speedmaster dyno res
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,378
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,378 |
Graeme, what is your thought on the notion expressed at this forum that the stock pistons being cast instead of forged would be prone to failute at revs higher than the limiter allows? My bike seems like it's just really coming on right about the time it hits the limiter which is really irritating.
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Re: Performance tuning- 865cc Speedmaster dyno res
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 100
Adjunct
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OP
Adjunct
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 100 |
Quote:
Graeme, what is your thought on the notion expressed at this forum that the stock pistons being cast instead of forged would be prone to failute at revs higher than the limiter allows? My bike seems like it's just really coming on right about the time it hits the limiter which is really irritating.
My personal opinion is that it is unlikely, Triumph pistons are very well made from our experience.
Cheers
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Re: Performance tuning- 865cc Speedmaster dyno res
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,378
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,378 |
Well then, whats the lowdown on the black boxes? Am i correct in assuming they aren't available to the majority of us and that they probably never will be?
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