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Not so pleasurable throttle response!!
#217442 11/13/2007 8:24 PM
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05tba Offline OP
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So here is my issue. It is kind of long winded to bear with me...We shall start in April of 2007. I took a spill. Nothing much physically or mechanically affected. May, I pulled the needles out and replaced with TBS needles, 1 plastic shim. Put the carbs back together. The next day I fired it up for a long 700 mile ride. She was very hesitant on throttle response. Ran very poorly within early throttle stage, within pilot/needle stage of throttle. I rode her anyways cause I wanted to ride this ride and since the majority of it was at higher rpms and throttle ranges, it was not much of an issue except at red lights and speed limits under 65. So by the end of the ride, she was mostly back to normal. Must have had some junk that fell into a jet or something. Till this day though, she does has choppy/hesitant throttle response within the lower throttle ranges that are primarily operated by pilot jet.

The setup of my '05 TBA at the time was Sceptre pipes, 45 pilots, 132 mains, TBS needles with 2 metal shims, UNI filter with snorkel removed from air box, idle mixture screws set at about 2.75 turns, AI removed, spark plugs side gapped.

I have finally gotten tired of this hestitant response so I posted a discussion on the Rat.net site. Got some responses. Most people suggested that I got from 45 pilots to 42's. So I figured what the heck...While I was at it, I removed the airbox and added K&N pod filters, 150 mains and the 42 pilots, turned the mixture screws out to about 3.25 turns. ****** thing is still running like crap at early throttle. I haven't had the carbs balanced. I am not sure if this is an air/fuel mixture problem, a vacuum problem or something totally separate. Somebody please help me with this one. I heard that those of you on this forum are more experienced in mods and mechanical advice with the TBA.

Cannot wait to hear from yall.

Thanks,

GM

Re: Not so pleasurable throttle response!!
05tba #217443 11/13/2007 8:30 PM
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Take out the shims


Mark
Re: Not so pleasurable throttle response!!
05tba #217444 11/13/2007 8:35 PM
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No airbox usually means 45s for pilots, mains for K&N pods vary from 140 to 155. With TBS needles you probably need to look at the low side on the mains, especially if you're running a couple of shims. I'd check for vaccuum leaks around the manifold rubbers and while you're at it make certain the rubbers are on correctly.


Also, check the "squirrel condoms" for dry rot and finally chuck that hidden fuel filter at the common inlet point and put an inline filer on the fuel line where you can see it. Then you need to balance the carbs. I'm sure some of the others will jump in here and give you some sage pointers.


A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
Re: Not so pleasurable throttle response!!
oldroadie #217445 11/13/2007 9:37 PM
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Based on Pat's jet calculator I am in the right area. Most people I have interacted with on the internet swear by that calculator. I thought that the 45's were the right choice as well. It did have slightly better early response on torque when I had those in. I noticed a decline once I swapped in the 42's.

The rubber are on right, squirrel condoms are good, haven't found any other vacuum leaks. Where is the hidden fuel filter. The only thing that is hidden that resembles a fuel filter is that tip-over valve on the overflow line from the tank.

Re: Not so pleasurable throttle response!!
05tba #217446 11/13/2007 9:42 PM
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TBS needles & 2 shims...probably too rich in the midrange. It takes 10 minutes...pull the shims take it for a spin.


Mark
Re: Not so pleasurable throttle response!!
LitzerSki #217447 11/13/2007 9:47 PM
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the hidden filter is at the base of the gas line from the tank. Pull it off where it splits into 2 between the carbs and it is right there in that little plastic T and pulls right out easily.


I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
Re: Not so pleasurable throttle response!!
The_Dog33 #217448 11/13/2007 9:54 PM
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Ahh...no wonder it is "hidden".

Litz, I will give that a shot.

I noticed when I first bought the bike, I took a ride up to Prescott, Arizona which is at about 5500 ft in elevation in comparison to about 1000 ft down in Phoenix. When I got back, the bike was kind of sputtering at idle. I took out the spark plugs and they were a little heavy in carbon so I cleaned them up and the sputter disappeared. Well, lately, she has been sputtering at idle, however, the plugs are not blackening. But it must be a richness problem. I will give that a shot and see how we run tomorrow. And...I do desperately want to balance my carbs. If only I had a merc tuner.

Re: Not so pleasurable throttle response!!
The_Dog33 #217449 11/13/2007 10:06 PM
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This might sound like a stupid question but when taking out the fuel filter, will the 1 into 2 T still connect up alright. I just can't picture this fuel filter setup properly and as I want to take it off, I wanted to be prepared with any other parts I might need. Cheers


Staintune Pipes, K&N Pods, 45 pilots, TBS needles and 145 mains.
Re: Not so pleasurable throttle response!!
Stacka #217450 11/13/2007 10:42 PM
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I don't think it is your jetting (although I don't think that is set up optimally, either- more on that).

Sounds like an obstruction or a vacuum leak. I'm with oldroadie, too. we'll try to check two things at once. My first stop would be with the vacuum caps (a.k.a. squirrel condoms"). If the AI is gone, there should be three fairly robust caps and one that doesn't really match (head side left). Replace the one head side left with the carb side left one and put a balance tube between the carbs. Ride it. See if that fixes the problem. This will test for the odd cap leaking and balance of the carbs. The little odd cap may look good, but they are know to go bad in less than a year. Mine looked great and was not leaking, but when I tried to take it off, it tore in two.

You don't need a merc tuner. Search homemade balance tool- or get someone to do it for you...
http://www.bonnevilleamerica.com/forums/...part=1&vc=1


2002 Bandit 1200/ GSXR cams/ 1277 BB Kit/ Holeshot header and can/ 38mm flatslides/ a good head/lotsa hp/lotsa tq- lots of rear tires...
Re: Not so pleasurable throttle response!!
Cowtipper #217451 11/13/2007 11:49 PM
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You might try the original needles while you're at it, those TBS needles do have a very different taper that combined with the shims might be coming into play well before their meant to and mucking with the pilots and air mix adjustment. You already know the needle swap is a quick adjustment, I'd try the stock needles with one shim as well as testing the TBS without any shims. Good call Cowtipper on the crossover tube


A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
Re: Not so pleasurable throttle response!!
Cowtipper #217452 11/14/2007 1:07 AM
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Already have the crossover tube. Did that long time ago cause the ****** thing kept shutting off at idle. I think Dinqua suggested it to me about 2 years ago and has worked great ever since. I just replaced that hose today actually cause that one likes to get all sticky and crummy after about 6 months. I took out the two shims and noticed a slight improvement. I still think I need a balance and will continue to replace the squirrel condoms, even though they check out fine.

Re: Not so pleasurable throttle response!!
Stacka #217453 11/14/2007 11:35 AM
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Quote:

when taking out the fuel filter, will the 1 into 2 T still connect up alright.




Yeah.
The filter kinda fits down in the T.
You'll see it when you get in there.


Said Molly to James, that's a fine motorbike. Richard Thompson
Re: Not so pleasurable throttle response!!
05tba #217454 11/14/2007 6:03 PM
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I never could get my bike to run great with the TBS needles.
I just use the stock needles with 2 shims.
but that was mostly mid range.

with the bottom end problem it sound more like vacume or
to much richness.

start the bike up and just let it idle for a while .
do not touch the throttle.
careful not to let it get to hot.
then shut it off and check the plugs .
this will give you a good reading of the idle.
if you ride or rev the throttle you do not get a
good idle reading from the plugs.
just an reading from the full range.


Pete
Re: Not so pleasurable throttle response!!
Cowtipper #217455 11/14/2007 7:04 PM
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If I can quickly cut in here. I definitely had a problem with my head side left stopper and when I replaced it, my bike ran much better. I just wanted to get this balance tube thing right.

Bryan mentions it is good to: " put a balance tube between the carbs" Does this mean put a balance tube between the carb side left and the carb side right? and if so, how much difference does it make? Cheers guys


Staintune Pipes, K&N Pods, 45 pilots, TBS needles and 145 mains.
Re: Not so pleasurable throttle response!!
Stacka #217456 11/14/2007 9:46 PM
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Quote:

... Does this mean put a balance tube between the carb side left and the carb side right?



yes

Quote:

... and if so, how much difference does it make?...





Just one man's experience and perception, I believe it helps balance the vacuum and mix between cyl's. I can't prove that part, but I believe it to be true.

I balance my carbs according to the standard procedures as talked about on this site. But using said balancer, I can see the carbs get out of balance at various throttle positions through out the RPM range.

It does, however, smooth out the idle and 0 -1/4 throttle is noticeably improved. My thumb screws are more responsive now as well.


2002 Bandit 1200/ GSXR cams/ 1277 BB Kit/ Holeshot header and can/ 38mm flatslides/ a good head/lotsa hp/lotsa tq- lots of rear tires...
Re: Not so pleasurable throttle response!!
Cowtipper #217457 11/16/2007 10:26 PM
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Thanks Bryan, it sure makes sense to me too.

Just regarding the throttle response question though, if I can just put in another angle to contemplate as well as all the other good suggestions, no one has mentioned float levels yet.

One of our members who came over from West Aus a couple of weeks ago noticed my throttle response when just blipping the right handgrip from idle was not as responsive as it should be, and suggested I check my float levels.

He said that even from factory his levels were wrong and after adjusting them to be 2mm above the float chamber mating surface (Haynes sais 1mm to 3mm), his throttle response improved dramatically.

Also the book provides a quick and easy way to check the levels by simply attaching a short see-through plastic tube to the bowl's drain plug (after turning off fuel cock first) and making sure it bends upwards to be alongside the carb (verticle), turn on the fuel and sight how high the fuel comes to. This then shows you what your float levels are

I just wanted to mention this as it is a nice and simple way of checking the float levels which if incorrect, apparently make a big difference to throttle response.


Staintune Pipes, K&N Pods, 45 pilots, TBS needles and 145 mains.
Re: Not so pleasurable throttle response!!
Stacka #217458 11/16/2007 10:55 PM
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when checking float level that way make sure your bike is sitting level or you will get a higher reading on the kickstand side.


I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
Re: Not so pleasurable throttle response!!
Stacka #217459 11/16/2007 11:09 PM
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yup. If memory serves, the fuel line in the tube should be within 1/4" of the gasket line of the carb bowl.


2002 Bandit 1200/ GSXR cams/ 1277 BB Kit/ Holeshot header and can/ 38mm flatslides/ a good head/lotsa hp/lotsa tq- lots of rear tires...

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