 Re: NH DYNOS (finally)
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I call BS on some of those #s. How can a guy get almost 70hp with debaffled pipes and airbox elim alone?
Answer? He can't, the dyno is no bueno.
There is no greater thrill than being shot at with no consequence. -Churchill
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Re: NH DYNOS (finally)
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Quote:
I call BS on some of those #s. How can a guy get almost 70hp with debaffled pipes and airbox elim alone?
Answer? He can't, the dyno is no bueno.
Don't think you're the only one with this thought. I've gone over and over in my head weather or not it was an accurate pull but here's the facts.
1) Every other Dyno run makes perfect sense so why would the dyno be wrong for 1 run out of 8 especially since I was not the first pull and I wasn't the last. (I was second)
2) The guy who ran the Dyno, Roger, uses his Dyno all the time. He takes it to Rallys, meetings, runs it in front of his shop. It's big business to him so the chances of him letting it fall into disrepair, slim to none.
3) Dynoing is what Roger does, ask any one who was there, the guy was really smart. It didn't matter if you were riding a Harley, a Ducati, a Triumph, or a snowmobile, if he could hook it up to his dyno he could tell you exactly what to do to your bike to make it run better (except Martin, his bike was running like it had EFI already  )
So I'll go ahead and put this out, if anyone thinks my Dyno isn't correct send me one of those Dyno Jet coupons (I know someone somewhere has one that's collecting dust) and I'll be more than happy to go get my results confirmed but untill than we have to go by whats in writing because it's way more accurate than anyone's gut instinct, even my own and I ride the bike.
Last edited by ArsnlTim; 08/16/2007 9:16 PM.
Let my dying thought be that every mile was fun and let my tombstone read,"They never made one fast enough for me."
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Re: NH DYNOS (finally)
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Loquacious
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Yup I got to agree with you there Tim...I was there I saw it....it does baffle...but the guy read my set up to a tee just by running the machine...he knew the ins and outs...and he nailed it! Like Pat said that day...some times you just get a machine that everything on it is right...and trust me if Pat byes it too...I am DEFINATELY not gonna question it!
THE VOICE OF REASON
per: Stewart
AF&AM/Shriner/Scoutmaster
130/45 TBS 2shim SS Uni 18/42
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Re: NH DYNOS (finally)
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well, take it to another dyno and see what happens, my guess is 10 less hp at least.
not trying to talk trash, I'm just saying a "stock" bike isn't capable of those #s
There is no greater thrill than being shot at with no consequence. -Churchill
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Re: NH DYNOS (finally)
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Who is doing the spreadsheet so I can send my numbers in on an 07 Speedmaster here in Syd Aus.
The more info the better.
Derek
2008 Black Speedmaster
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Re: NH DYNOS (finally)
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I said I'd have no problem with that, the problem I do have is paying for it. Not that $70-$100 is too rich for me it just that I've already paid once and while it seems high to me too, facts are facts and Dynos are designed to give accurate readings so I can think of a lot better places to stick that kind of money (like progressive fork springs) than to settle an argument. So if someone has a Dyno Jet coupon sitting around collecting dust, please send it to me so we can all see if it was acurate or not. Until someone is willing to send me one, I'm not trying to talk trash either, we'll have to go with the results from the very expensive, highly calibrated, seemingly accurate in every other instance machine that was run by a very skilled operator and not by one person who wasn't there saying it's imposible.
Last edited by ArsnlTim; 08/16/2007 9:51 PM.
Let my dying thought be that every mile was fun and let my tombstone read,"They never made one fast enough for me."
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Re: NH DYNOS (finally)
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Quote:
not trying to talk trash, I'm just saying a "stock" bike isn't capable of those #s
There wasn't a stock bike in any of the above runs.
The 68 HP Speedmaster was running 160 mains. My bike was perhaps the closest to stock, and gave up nearly exactly what the factory specs for torque and HP
Our carbs are only capable of a finite amount of air via their naturally aspirated deign and the constant air induction volume of our non variable intake valves. Increasing HP is as easy as pouring the fuel to the coals. One can reach a maximum potential HP at an air to fuel ratio of 12.6:1 -- Not impossible or difficult to achieve. The only potential drawback is a loss of torque, and the fact that the HP gain is at the highest RPMs. Every fuel rich bike shown (except Pat's) is running 50 HP max until they get above 6000 RPMs.
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Re: NH DYNOS (finally)
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by stock I mean internals
There is no greater thrill than being shot at with no consequence. -Churchill
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Re: NH DYNOS (finally)
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I just posted in the lounge looking for someone who has a dynojet coupon they don't plan on using that they wouldn't mind sending to me so we can check the results. If I do get one, my question is, after the dyno run, roger told me that I should go one size down on my main jets, put 2 shims on my needles, and go 1/4 to 1/2 turns leaner on my mixture screws. I've done all that. If I do manage to get my hands on a coupon would everyone like to see my bike as it is now and if it's close to where it was we can agree waether it was accurate or not or would everyone like me to go back to my NH Rally settings (pre dyno) so we'll know exactly how accurate it was?
Last edited by ArsnlTim; 08/16/2007 10:22 PM.
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Re: NH DYNOS (finally)
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One could get upset to spent $X,XXX on a big bore campaign, then see these HP numbers, but the big bore's true value is shown in it's torque curve, and the viable performance on road.
I drove a 300 HP truck that would outrun EVERY 350 HP truck on the road, as the 300 had much more torque early on, as the manufacturer had widened the cylinder bore, yet shortened the stroke.
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Re: NH DYNOS (finally)
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I wish we had chipped in and put Bill's stock bike on as a baseline.
I'm confident in the dyno #'s anyway. And my hp curve crosses
50 @5500 rpm.
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Re: NH DYNOS (finally)
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i thought is was bogus also. i was talkign to pat and we both looked at eachother when we saw those numbers. that is what made us dyno ours. as you can see we both dynoed less than expected so maybe he just has one of those bikes. who knows.
Frank
(Former)05 BA tbike pipes, ai removed, Freak, mikuni hsr 42's, 904, ported/polished head, 1mm oversized valves
NOW-2010 silver and black tbird
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Re: NH DYNOS (finally)
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I think we're forgetting the most important aspect of my bike as opposed to everyone else... I'm using Suzuki Oil
Let my dying thought be that every mile was fun and let my tombstone read,"They never made one fast enough for me."
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Re: NH DYNOS (finally)
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Big Bore
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Crikey! That Suzuki oil again! Quote:
go one size down on my main jets, put 2 shims on my needles
To me, that is effectively the same as you have now mostly because of the taper of the stock needles (Ed's spreadsheet above does not mention TBS for you so I assume stock needles).
What did you go down to, 155s?
"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity" - Robert Heinlein
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Re: NH DYNOS (finally)
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Check Pants
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So...knowing the following: 865 cc = 54hp@6750, 51ft.lb@4800790 cc = 61hp@7400, 44ft.lb@3500I dont see it impossible that an America or Speedy with the 790 motor could get up to about the 70hp/50ft.lb range. Especially if its getting the fuel and air needed. After looking at some other info: Specialty Spares claims 65 Dynod HP with their pipes (Iassume on a 790), UNI and jets. Thunderbike claims 68 Dynod HP (on a 790) with pipes. Sorry...no torq info from either. You get the point though. Whats really bugging me is that those of us with newer 865 cc bikes will only get minimal increases.  Thoughts anyone?
SOLD: 07 Black BA, 39mm FCRs, TPUSA stage 1 head, TPUSA 813 cams, TPUSA 10.8:1 pistons, TTP #3 igniter, Specialty Spares Long Cannons, Tsukayu Hard Bags. 82HP/55tq
NEW: 19 Goldwing Tour DCT
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Re: NH DYNOS (finally)
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Quote:
Quote:
go one size down on my main jets, put 2 shims on my needles
To me, that is effectively the same as you have now mostly because of the taper of the stock needles (Ed's spreadsheet above does not mention TBS for you so I assume stock needles).
What did you go down to, 155s?
I don't pretend to know a whole lot about how exactly the carbs work so if I'm way off base maybe someone like pat or bucky can back me up but from my understanding you're correct, it the same, or close to. If you look at my dyno sheet the air fuel mixture runs pretty much straight on the line but it starts high (leaning the mixture screws solved that) than it dips lean and runs back to the high side in the upper RPM range. By putting the shims on the needles it brings the entire line up and straightens it after the idle circut fixing the lean dip in the middle. Going down on the main jets brings the straightened line back down to the correct setting giving me a straight line all the way across the RPM range. Also since the mixture is straight all the way through the RPM range it fixes the fluxuations in the torque curve where the lean dip was. And again, thats just my understanding of how it works and I could be off base so if I'm wrong could someone smarter than me back me up
Let my dying thought be that every mile was fun and let my tombstone read,"They never made one fast enough for me."
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Re: NH DYNOS (finally)
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Worn Saddle
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Tim, Regarding the A/F chart, above the line is lean, below the line is rich. Looks to me that when your carbs engage the main jets the bike runs a tad rich, then as the throttle opens it heads back to the lean side. I'm thinking down a size on the mains to adjust that 5K dip with a shim to richen the rpm zone where the pilots are working and you should be golden. The carb guru's will know better if this is correct  (I suspect they might offer to skip the shim and increase the pilot instead)
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Re: NH DYNOS (finally)
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Big Bore
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Hey Tim, If your numbers came in good with the changes and flattened the A/F, I'd say leave it!!
"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity" - Robert Heinlein
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Re: NH DYNOS (finally)
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Don't ax me - I make it up as I go along  Quote:
So...knowing the following:
865 cc = 54hp@6750, 51ft.lb@4800
790 cc = 61hp@7400, 44ft.lb@3500
I don't see it impossible that an America or Speedy with the 790 motor could get up to about the 70hp/50ft.lb range.
I agree. I imagine we gain 3 or 4 horses as soon as that stock pipe is opened up or changed. They're pretty well gagged off when in factory trim. See also - sewing machine on 2 wheels factor on the ride home from the dealer. I remember pulling into the driveway, and wife and daughter, who don't know a motorcycle from an aircraft carrier remarked something like: "That's a great looking bike, but it sounds like, uh, a Waring blender, electric drill, sewing machine..."
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Re: NH DYNOS (finally)
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Quote:
Hey Tim,
If your numbers came in good with the changes and flattened the A/F, I'd say leave it!!
The run thats posted is pre changes, it was with the jets that came with the freak and seat of the pants mixture screw adjusting. After the run roger gave his suggestions and I followed them to a tee, I haven't done another run to verify his accuracy yet but after I made the adjustments I could feel the difference in smoothness all the way through the RPM range.
Let my dying thought be that every mile was fun and let my tombstone read,"They never made one fast enough for me."
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Re: NH DYNOS (finally)
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Quote:
Tim,
Regarding the A/F chart, above the line is lean, below the line is rich. Looks to me that when your carbs engage the main jets the bike runs a tad rich, then as the throttle opens it heads back to the lean side. I'm thinking down a size on the mains to adjust that 5K dip with a shim to richen the rpm zone where the pilots are working and you should be golden. The carb guru's will know better if this is correct (I suspect they might offer to skip the shim and increase the pilot instead)
When Pat looked at the run his first thought was that the jets were fine, he had a little discussion with roger and then said that his suggestions made sense, I haven't really talked to pat too much since then but I think I may be spot on now.
Let my dying thought be that every mile was fun and let my tombstone read,"They never made one fast enough for me."
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Re: NH DYNOS (finally)
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Hello,
Just to ad to the discussion I like to report the following;
Last year I dynoed 65.14 Bhp/65.16 Nm torque. With original carbs (145 main/45 low), TBS pipes and a modified airbox. Today I have done a new dyno run with my new CR2 + Freak = 66.43 Bhp and 67.03 Nm torque.
Conclusion 1 - it is possible for a 790 engine to reach between 65 and 70 BHP with free flow pipes and any matching carb.
Conclusion 2 - A god modified airbox can match the Freek.
To go further I suppose you need porting the head, bigger valves, and/or a big bore kit.
Or a turbo.
Regards
Hasse
Hasse TBA -02 Pre-Fire Cardinal Red, Wiseco 904, Thunderbike pipes, Freak
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Re: NH DYNOS (finally)
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Yes, more support for the accuracy of "the machine" and not the accuracy of "sweatmachine"  sorry, I've been trying not to talk trash but the joke was there and I couldn't help myself
Let my dying thought be that every mile was fun and let my tombstone read,"They never made one fast enough for me."
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Re: NH DYNOS (finally)
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Looking at Rob05 and Martin's dyno plots, they are about 10HP apart. Is Rob 05 bike a 790 and Martin's 05 Speedmaster an 865? Rob used 135 main jets with Speciality Spares and Martin used 132 mains with gutted stock exhausts.
For several years I have had 130 mains, TBS needles, and 42 Pilots, unifilter with drilled airbox, no snorkels, and exaust mufflers with 2 baffles removed.
Last night I ordered 132 and 135 mains and 45 Pilots. My bike runs good now, but I want a little more power at the top end.
My two questions are:
1. Should I install the 132 mains only, or go straight to the 135s and should I mess with changing the Pilots at all.
2. Is there much difference in airflow with the stock mufflers minus two baffles and aftermarket pipes such as the Specialty Spares?
I know that Pat's jetting calculator says 129.5 is optimum, but that calculator was built before these dyno runs that you just got.
Thanks in advance for your opinions.
--Tom
02 TBA; 130 mains; TBS; Nology Coils&Wires;Unifilter/opened Airbox; -AI/snorkels; -2 baffles;Progressive 440s & Springs
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Re: NH DYNOS (finally)
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look at my #'s I'm pig rich!!
But I knew that I would be rich going in, I had jetted for a drilled air box (which I had'nt/have'nt done yet)
But based upon my dyno...I intend to drop to 130's, drill the air box, and add one shim to get rid of that 'off the chart' (litterally!!) drop
THE VOICE OF REASON
per: Stewart
AF&AM/Shriner/Scoutmaster
130/45 TBS 2shim SS Uni 18/42
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Re: NH DYNOS (finally)
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Worn Saddle
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Quote:
look at my #'s I'm pig rich!!
But I knew that I would be rich going in, I had jetted for a drilled air box (which I had'nt/have'nt done yet)
But based upon my dyno...I intend to drop to 130's, drill the air box, and add one shim to get rid of that 'off the chart' (litterally!!) drop
I think our bike's are set up very much alike except for your TBS needles and looking at your dyno chart makes me want to go there... I also need to pull my carbs and look at the mains and see where I am.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: NH DYNOS (finally)
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Thanks Rob. I will probably just go with the 132s then, instead of the 135s. I am having a little problem with the Internet just now so I can't recheck it, but as I remember, most people were running a little rich with their setups.
--Tom
02 TBA; 130 mains; TBS; Nology Coils&Wires;Unifilter/opened Airbox; -AI/snorkels; -2 baffles;Progressive 440s & Springs
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Re: NH DYNOS (finally)
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Oil Expert
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I started the table and sent it to OldRoadie who offered to create a link so that a table could be uploaded. So I guess unless Oldroadie has a problem with it, send your results to him. Just one further thing though, as these results need to be verified at least by a creditable dyno mob, just sending in figures isn't going to cut it amongst most who go to a lot of time, money and effort to achieve good resutls. So from my perspective unless the dyno chart is shown to all, the figure should not be put on the chart. Just my opinion but I doubt many will disagree  Oldroadie, can you confirm you don't mind being the contact to update this chart as I believe given the interest in these figures, you may be required to update it from time to time.
Staintune Pipes, K&N Pods, 45 pilots, TBS needles and 145 mains.
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Big Bore
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Quote:
unless the dyno chart is shown to all, the figure should not be put on the chart
Excellent point and I would hope we don't see unverified data in the chart!
"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity" - Robert Heinlein
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Anybody know the altitude of where the dyno runs were made, as that has an affect on the air/fuel ratio also.
--Tom
02 TBA; 130 mains; TBS; Nology Coils&Wires;Unifilter/opened Airbox; -AI/snorkels; -2 baffles;Progressive 440s & Springs
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Re: NH DYNOS (finally)
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prob a couple thousand feet above sea level. they were done in nashua NH
Frank
(Former)05 BA tbike pipes, ai removed, Freak, mikuni hsr 42's, 904, ported/polished head, 1mm oversized valves
NOW-2010 silver and black tbird
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Re: NH DYNOS (finally)
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Rj's Motor sports sits exactly 200 ft above sea level
THE VOICE OF REASON
per: Stewart
AF&AM/Shriner/Scoutmaster
130/45 TBS 2shim SS Uni 18/42
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Re: NH DYNOS (finally)
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Worn Saddle
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Quote:
Oldroadie, can you confirm you don't mind being the contact to update this chart as I believe given the interest in these figures, you may be required to update it from time to time.
Not a problem, but since it's a picture instead of a doc I might wait until I get multiple entries.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: NH DYNOS (finally)
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(Former)05 BA tbike pipes, ai removed, Freak, mikuni hsr 42's, 904, ported/polished head, 1mm oversized valves
NOW-2010 silver and black tbird
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Re: NH DYNOS (finally)
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Member
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Anyone know where there is a DYNO in Northern NJ or NYC?
Ralph Muro
'06' TBA / Tach / Freak / BUB Slash Cuts / TBS Needles with shims / 150 jets / 45 pilots / 440s / Rivco Risers / Corbin Solo / Dresser Bars / CHROME...CHROME...CHROME...
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go to the dynojet website and you can find one on there
Frank
(Former)05 BA tbike pipes, ai removed, Freak, mikuni hsr 42's, 904, ported/polished head, 1mm oversized valves
NOW-2010 silver and black tbird
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Goodonya Ed 
Staintune Pipes, K&N Pods, 45 pilots, TBS needles and 145 mains.
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Loquacious
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I saved them all as PDF's also if that helps?
THE VOICE OF REASON
per: Stewart
AF&AM/Shriner/Scoutmaster
130/45 TBS 2shim SS Uni 18/42
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Worn Saddle
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Quote:
I saved them all as PDF's also if that helps?
Since I don't have the full on Adobe Acrobat editor I'd still have to "edit" them in Photoshop so it's really 6 of one/half dozen of the other...
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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 Re: NH DYNOS (finally)
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What's it actually cost to make a good run on the dyno in your area.I would one day like to have it done.Better fuel mileage would be great.My runs good now,but nothing wrong with running better.More power and better mileage would be great! 
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