 Big Bore Versus Cams
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3/4 Throttle
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Maybe this has been beaten to death, but I think its a worthy discussion. Anyway I have an 865 motor, I have found the power band and love it. From 3500 on up is where the fun is. But I want more, seems like the latest discussion of the Thunderbike Cams is right up my alley. So if you had the cash, would you do the 904 Big Bore or the Cams with headwork? 
Triumph Scrambler Diablo Red & Silver (2014), Arrow Exhaust, FI remapped with TTP #4, 16 tooth sprocket, Triumph Gel Solo seat & Rack, Progressive 440 1" lowered Shocks, SAI & O2 Removal, Airbox Restrictor Plate removed.
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Re: Big Bore Versus Cams
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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You'll get more bang for the buck from the cams/headwork. There's a lot more horsepower to made from porting and valve lift/closing duration mods than from 40cc, IMHO. 
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Big Bore Versus Cams
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3/4 Throttle
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OP
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I thought the Wiseco Big Bore had a Forged piston with a Higher compression ratio, is that true, and if so does that help alot??
Triumph Scrambler Diablo Red & Silver (2014), Arrow Exhaust, FI remapped with TTP #4, 16 tooth sprocket, Triumph Gel Solo seat & Rack, Progressive 440 1" lowered Shocks, SAI & O2 Removal, Airbox Restrictor Plate removed.
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Re: Big Bore Versus Cams
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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Quote:
I thought the Wiseco Big Bore had a Forged piston with a Higher compression ratio, is that true, and if so does that help alot??
It does.
But without proper breathing (cams and ports) the potential is stifled.
Best bet would be both.
If you can only afford one, the cams and head work will give you much better performance gains.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Big Bore Versus Cams
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3/4 Throttle
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Thanks Bill, I appreciate the advice.......
Triumph Scrambler Diablo Red & Silver (2014), Arrow Exhaust, FI remapped with TTP #4, 16 tooth sprocket, Triumph Gel Solo seat & Rack, Progressive 440 1" lowered Shocks, SAI & O2 Removal, Airbox Restrictor Plate removed.
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Re: Big Bore Versus Cams
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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the 904 ups the compression which is where most of the power increase comes from. the forged pistons are much stronger than the stockers so high revs will not be a worry. cams, who knows. i am sure you will notice a difference even without them. also they are easier to change than the bb kit. you could always do the bb and then throw cams in when you get the money, or wait it out and find some 790 cams. guess it comes down to more what you want out of the bike, and how much you want or are willing to spend. decisoins decisions
Frank
(Former)05 BA tbike pipes, ai removed, Freak, mikuni hsr 42's, 904, ported/polished head, 1mm oversized valves
NOW-2010 silver and black tbird
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Re: Big Bore Versus Cams
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However, if you're running the 790 mill the BB is the way to go, right? (Esp considering I've yet to see a cam upgrade for the 790) Also, CanyonWolf, we should get together! I'm up in Reston, and I was down your way the other weekend.  I'd like to compare notes about the JC Whitney/EMGO exhausts too. --Jaeger
NEUTIQUAM ERRO
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Re: Big Bore Versus Cams
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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Find some 790 cams (I have a set, make me an offer) and maybe port and install 1mm and 2mm over valves.
A word to the wise is not necessary. It is the stupid ones who need the advice.
Pat
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Re: Big Bore Versus Cams
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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Quote:
Find some 790 cams (I have a set, make me an offer) and maybe port and install 1mm and 2mm over valves.
This is what I'm thinking since he already has an 865. I looked over the specs on the 904 kit and although it did say it increased the ratio to 10.5:1 it didn't increase the stroke and only increased the bore 2mm. Something isn't quite right about that math considering the increase in swept volume is only 20cc per jug. On the other hand, that kit in a 790 would be awesome, especially with valve and head work to match. It seems the more reasonable claim that an increase from 395cc to 452cc per cylinder would bring the compression ration to 10.5:1. I'm thinking from 432.7cc to 452cc (865-904) is more like an increase of 9.8:1, maybe 10.0:1 and doesn't achieve the 10.5:1 as advertised. 
Last edited by oldroadie; 07/23/2007 4:02 PM.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Big Bore Versus Cams
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I've got the 904 with headwork, FREAK, and D&D pipes. Whoa! It moves to say the least. I would think that if you already have the 865cc, I'd go with cams and headwork too. Good luck!
Not you fat Jesus!
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Re: Big Bore Versus Cams
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3/4 Throttle
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Ok, Cams and Headwork it is, now are Thunderbike cams the way to go or go with the 790's, is there a Machine shop I should ship my heads to or just go local?
Triumph Scrambler Diablo Red & Silver (2014), Arrow Exhaust, FI remapped with TTP #4, 16 tooth sprocket, Triumph Gel Solo seat & Rack, Progressive 440 1" lowered Shocks, SAI & O2 Removal, Airbox Restrictor Plate removed.
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Re: Big Bore Versus Cams
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Canyon, you're probably only looking at gaining maybe 5 to at best 10 hp..Is that worth the $$.
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Re: Big Bore Versus Cams
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3/4 Throttle
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Wildmike's Dyno says 79 HP after cams and headwork, I know I'm nowhere near that with just the Mods I have now.
Triumph Scrambler Diablo Red & Silver (2014), Arrow Exhaust, FI remapped with TTP #4, 16 tooth sprocket, Triumph Gel Solo seat & Rack, Progressive 440 1" lowered Shocks, SAI & O2 Removal, Airbox Restrictor Plate removed.
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Re: Big Bore Versus Cams
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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Quote:
Ok, Cams and Headwork it is, now are Thunderbike cams the way to go or go with the 790's, is there a Machine shop I should ship my heads to or just go local?
One of the cats that's alrady done this will have a good answer for you. I'm betting an experienced shop is the way to go. I'll bet Dinqua knows.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Big Bore Versus Cams
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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I use Steve Seely, his address is listed in my website in the big bore area. He charges us $100 for porting work and can also do bigger valves if you want. Valves are about $25 each and new seals about $4, 8 of each needed. You can use 1mm oversize for the exhaust and 2mm oversize for the intake for optimal performance.
Here is contact info:
Seely Engine machine
3904 Old Mill Road
Stanley, New York 14561
(585) 526-6663
ask for Steve, tell him, "Pat, the Triumph guy, sent you" for special pricing. Really!
A word to the wise is not necessary. It is the stupid ones who need the advice.
Pat
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Re: Big Bore Versus Cams
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Can you do the oversize valves without the recessed valve reliefs on the piston top (like the one in the BB kit)?
2002 Bandit 1200/ GSXR cams/ 1277 BB Kit/ Holeshot header and can/ 38mm flatslides/ a good head/lotsa hp/lotsa tq- lots of rear tires...
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Re: Big Bore Versus Cams
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"You'll get more bang for the buck from the cams/headwork. There's a lot more horsepower to made from porting and valve lift/closing duration mods than from 40cc, IMHO."
Curious what your basing this upon?
If it was my money I'd do the 904 kit and port work. You'll gain usable power gains across the entire rpm range. I'd know about this since I've done it...
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Re: Big Bore Versus Cams
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Worn Saddle
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On the fact that he's staring with an 865 and the original query was an either/or question "would you do the 904 Big Bore or the Cams with headwork?" More horsepower to made with both conversions in tandem to be sure. I still doubt the claims of 10.5:1 compression in regards to a 904 upgrade to an 865. In his case a 90mm bore to 92mm bore and same 68mm stroke just doesn't increase the compression answer from 9.2:1 to 10.5:1 On the other hand, it does work when upping a 790 to 904...therefore more gain per dollar invested in flowing air/fuel through the motor by porting and hotter cams.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Big Bore Versus Cams
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Ok, but what are you basing this upon? I'm assuming it's not experience, otherwise you wouldnt be scoffing at the 904 kit. The 904 kit builds power everywhere...cams are a tradeoff.
Even Pat can vouch for that...ask him about the result's of his Megacycle cams. For me, I'll stick with the 904 kit...it makes power everywhere.
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Re: Big Bore Versus Cams
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Pat was coming off a 790 not an 865 though.
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Re: Big Bore Versus Cams
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Worn Saddle
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You misunderstand me. I completely agree with the 904 when it's based on a 790 engine; it's the performance gain to an 865 that doesn't seem to make as much difference for the amount of money invested. That's why I suggested cams and ports for the 856...more bang for the buck. Now a stroker kit in that 865 would probably offer as much gain as a 904 does to a 790 but that wasn't the question. As for me, I have a 790 and the 904 looks like it would be a great improvement for my engine, even better with a ported head and larger valves!
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Big Bore Versus Cams
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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Ed, looking back at your previous post, you seem to be under the impression that increasing the bore (swept area) is related to the compression ratio.
It's the piston design that changes the compression. It essentially decreases the volume of the combustion chamber (at TDC) in relation to the total volume of the cylinder.
That's how, back in the day, you would have the same engines in cars with different compression ratios. e.g., 327ci base two bbl carb, 8.5:1 compression vs. 327ci Corvette engine 11:1 compression. Different pistons (among other things). But the pistons are what determines the compression ratio.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Big Bore Versus Cams
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Just went to a dyno shootout at my dealer in va this last weekend. A victor hammer with a stage 2 kit, power commander and all that jazz only did 79 hp. And its 100ci. Yamaha warrior with minor mods 69 hp, my little speedy did 60.7 hp with freak and 160s. Only crusiers I saw break 80 were the rocket 3's. The highest was 139 hp. Winner in the sport bike class was a ZX14 at 179hp. I think wishing for 79 hp from cams and head work can only be obtained on an overly optimistic dyno. The only bonnie higher than mine was 360 degree with crf39's and carefull tuneing. He only dynoed at63hp. The carbs were beautiful, but three hp for 1250.00 bucks just don't seem worth it to me.
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Re: Big Bore Versus Cams
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Quote:
You misunderstand me. I completely agree with the 904 when it's based on a 790 engine; it's the performance gain to an 865 that doesn't seem to make as much difference for the amount of money invested. That's why I suggested cams and ports for the 856...more bang for the buck. Now a stroker kit in that 865 would probably offer as much gain as a 904 does to a 790 but that wasn't the question. As for me, I have a 790 and the 904 looks like it would be a great improvement for my engine, even better with a ported head and larger valves!
Who has done a 904 kit on a 865 motor and complained about the performance gain? Machine just did a 904 kit on his 865 bonnie and headwork and is more than happy with the end results.
...where are you getting this stuff?
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Re: Big Bore Versus Cams
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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Quote:
Ed, looking back at your previous post, you seem to be under the impression that increasing the bore (swept area) is related to the compression ratio.
It's the piston design that changes the compression. It essentially decreases the volume of the combustion chamber (at TDC) in relation to the total volume of the cylinder.
That's how, back in the day, you would have the same engines in cars with different compression ratios. e.g., 327ci base two bbl carb, 8.5:1 compression vs. 327ci Corvette engine 11:1 compression. Different pistons (among other things). But the pistons are what determines the compression ratio.
Agreed. I don't have a 790 & 865 piston to compare so I made an asuumption based on the published specs of the stock engines and assumed the compression chambers and cams were different. Since it was a "bang for the buck" question and since 790 cams in a 865 engine appear to make a good deal more power I chose cams and headwork. You are correct that I could be completely off base and the 865 pistons could be the answer to the equal compression ratio in the stock motors. I also don't know how much it costs after the inital parts investment to do a big bore kit but I was betting over $1K and "bang for the buck" was the premise. It does make me wonder why I haven't seen higher compression pistons for the 865s out there, that would be a most effective solution to utilize that extra swept volume
Again, it was an answer for an either/or query and has nothing to do with whether or not Big Bore owners are happy with their engines. 
There's a lot more discussion here My Thunderbike Cams
Last edited by oldroadie; 07/24/2007 8:51 AM.
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Re: Big Bore Versus Cams
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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I haven't looked yet but the higher compression pistons for stock bore is something I have been thinking about too. I always ran 10.5:1 in the old 650s, Wiesco forged (no longer available except old stock)I would do a quick hone and slap in a set of forged 10.5:1s in a second if the cost was similar to the old ones. Used to get a set for less than $200 with rings and pins.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Big Bore Versus Cams
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Worn Saddle
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I stand corrected. Both engines have the same heads, therefore the same combustion chamber so the kit provides the same increases to both motors. I wrongly assumed a difference in the heads since both compression ratios are spec'd the same and that gave the wrong answer when I did the math. I strongly suspect you'd still have to do some headwork to take proper advantage of the larger bore and higher compression ratio but that's a subject for another thread.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Big Bore Versus Cams
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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Quote:
Can you do the oversize valves without the recessed valve reliefs on the piston top (like the one in the BB kit)?
I don't see why not.
A word to the wise is not necessary. It is the stupid ones who need the advice.
Pat
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Re: Big Bore Versus Cams
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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All depends on clearance,over size valves will be closer to the piston when open thats why there are reliefs in the pistons for the BB kit. Not for larger valves but since the compression is higher the combustion chamber is smaller so the top of the piston is higher and the relief is so the valve doesn't hit the piston. Same thing if the dia. of the valve is larger then when open the lowest edge is closer to the piston and a stock piston may hit the valve. I have never done any measurements on these bikes in that respect so I don't know what the existing clearance is but that is very important to verify before doing that type of job or you could bend a valve or worse damage the head and or cams.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Big Bore Versus Cams
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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Quote:
I strongly suspect you'd still have to do some headwork to take proper advantage of the larger bore and higher compression ratio but that's a subject for another thread.
Absolutely.
And yes, it is 
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Big Bore Versus Cams
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Port work just makes sense when doing a bigbore kit. It's a given. As for oversized valves with stock pistons...I wouldn count on being able to do it, I believe the stock piston's will fail to accomodate larger valves.
I could be wrong about this but would wager a small amount of money that it isnt possible.
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Re: Big Bore Versus Cams
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Learned Hand
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I strongly believe that if you get a 10.5:1 piston to drop into the 865, and get something close to the 790 cams specs, the 865 would perform to the 904 level. Just upping the compression and 40cc's on the 865 is not going to effect the total HP, as the cam profiles are for lower RPM torque. Sure, you'll some, but blasting dyno's means making power at high revs. Really, if you talk about every day around town performance, the conversation should be focused on, or at least include torque increases as well.
2002 Bandit 1200/ GSXR cams/ 1277 BB Kit/ Holeshot header and can/ 38mm flatslides/ a good head/lotsa hp/lotsa tq- lots of rear tires...
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Re: Big Bore Versus Cams
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Worn Saddle
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My original questions about 790 vs 865 upgrade to 904 were based using this Compression Ratio Calculator Even after being assured the heads are the same I still can't get the math to work out to match the published specs. That being said, I must rely on the folks who've actually done the conversion and just leave the math alone.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Big Bore Versus Cams
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Quote:
Just upping the compression and 40cc's on the 865 is not going to effect the total HP
so, increasing the displacement and compression will not increase hp? how can you even think that? I have a 904'd 865, and judging by how my front wheel lifts off the ground I'd say it increased the hp!
There is no greater thrill than being shot at with no consequence. -Churchill
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Re: Big Bore Versus Cams
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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Quote:
I have a 904'd 865, and judging by how my front wheel lifts off the ground I'd say it increased the hp!
Cool,  Since you're here, how much more money was the 904 conversion after the initial parts purchase? Did you do head work while you were at it? It's worthwhile to the discussion since the original topic was based on the dollars to horsepower ratio.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Big Bore Versus Cams
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Learned Hand
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Quote:
so, increasing the displacement and compression will not increase hp? how can you even think that? I have a 904'd 865, and judging by how my front wheel lifts off the ground I'd say it increased the hp!
I'd say you need to dyno it. HP isn't going to lift your front tire- unless your a) dropping the clutch at redline, or b) pulling roll ons at upper RMP's. Typically, HP is made near the top of RPM band; torque is made at lower RPM.
The 865 was intended for and designed to put out more torque than the 790- at the sacrifice of HP.
So, to answer your question of how can I think that- I'll reiterate. Upping the compression and gaining 40cc is not going to produce huge increase in HP on the 865 (because of the cam profile). I think your making the assumption that I stated it would not make more power. I didn't say that. It will make more power, but in the form of torque; which is what would be pulling the front wheel up.
The discussion up to this point have been around making horsepower. My point was if you want HP out of the 865- you will need to do something with cams. If you want more power, well, either will make more power...
Redlight-to-redlight, torque is your friend! 
2002 Bandit 1200/ GSXR cams/ 1277 BB Kit/ Holeshot header and can/ 38mm flatslides/ a good head/lotsa hp/lotsa tq- lots of rear tires...
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Cowboy, I don't think you understand what hp and torque are. They are directly related, and one is not made "near the top of RPM band" or "at lower RPM". You cannot increase torque without increasing hp.
Yes, the 865 cams make more POWER at lower RPMs, but increasing the bore and compression will net more POWER at all RPMs, not just a specific range.
There is no greater thrill than being shot at with no consequence. -Churchill
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Re: Big Bore Versus Cams
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Quote:
Quote:
I have a 904'd 865, and judging by how my front wheel lifts off the ground I'd say it increased the hp!
Cool, Since you're here, how much more money was the 904 conversion after the initial parts purchase? Did you do head work while you were at it? It's worthwhile to the discussion since the original topic was based on the dollars to horsepower ratio.
I did the Wiseco 904 kit along with installing 2mm larger intake valves and 1mm larger exhaust valves, along with porting and polishing the head and intake manifolds.
The total cost of the Wiseco kit, including machine work but not installation labor (I did it myself) was around $800 dollars. This includes $500 for the kit, $200 for machine work, and $100 in assorted parts and gaskets not included in the kit.
The headwork ran about $600, mostly in labor, but the valves themselves cost $250 and the valve seals cost about $80-100 bucks; exspensive little rubber bits.
Total cost was in the neighborhood of $1400. It runs well, I've been messing with a few things to tune it better and then I'll get it dyno'd. It has been lifting the front wheel in first gear (no clutch dropping) and when letting the clutch out in strong upshifts to 2nd gear. It is much stronger than stock. I'll post dyno runs when I get one. Probably in a few weeks.
There is no greater thrill than being shot at with no consequence. -Churchill
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Re: Big Bore Versus Cams
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Worn Saddle
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Quote:
Total cost was in the neighborhood of $1400.
Ah, that's better. How many hours labor you reckon you have in shop time? Wildmike has $2200 US tied up in his 79hp generating Thunderbike Cam set up. Would you guesss that you're making 79hp as well? Or, do you want to wait for the dyno results? The answer to the bedeviling "bang for the buck" question hangs on your results
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Big Bore Versus Cams
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,753
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,753 |
you also need to understand that triumph is a small company who is still not in the main stream aftermarket. performance mods are expensive on other brands nevermind smaller ones like triumph, so bang for the buck performance and triumph do not go together very well. especially if you have to pay for the work to be done
Frank
(Former)05 BA tbike pipes, ai removed, Freak, mikuni hsr 42's, 904, ported/polished head, 1mm oversized valves
NOW-2010 silver and black tbird
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