 Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Big Bore
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OP
Big Bore
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As some of you may have read, I got in all of about 10 miles up in the mountains before she started having problems. Here's the scenario: - Get her warmed up
 and loose all power to the plugs and I mean gone!
- Turn the key to off and then on again, fires up and will last anywhere from 5 seconds to 2 minutes
- Eventually, the problem becomes consistently intermittent (cuts in and out regularly every few seconds)
I've looked at: - All electrical connections
- Coils, connections, and spark plug wires
- Fuel flow
I am assuming it is the ignitor but do not have another one to verify of course so I am going to have to let Pure Triumph diagnose it for me. One hope for me is that my VIN falls into the Technical Service Bulletin #52 range so I may be able to get it fixed for free! Any opinions/input on this will be greatly appreciated!!
"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity" - Robert Heinlein
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Re: Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,518 Likes: 31
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,518 Likes: 31 |
Phil,
Yep it sounds like the ignitor. I had the same problem (although only on one cylinder) last year just before the run to/from Germany for the Euro Rally.
Sorry it messed up your ride.
You know, with the trip to Sweden coming up in just over a couple of weeks, this is the only thing about our bikes that scares me, especially with my going through several countries without dealers.
Bedouin.
Blessed are those eyes that have seen more roads than any man! (Homer).
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Re: Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Old Hand
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Old Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 8,639 Likes: 3 |
The igniter is located under the tank toward the rear on the right side of the frame. Some may be mounted on the left, but I haven't seen any. It's a plastic box about 2 inches or so square, maybe 2 1/2 - 3 inches tall and part of one side is sloped inward.
Pop the tank off and locate the igniter, then button up the bike and run it untill it starts acting up consistently. Spray some electronic cold spray (available in electronic supply shops including some Radioshacks) up under the tank where the igniter is located and see if it temporarily fixes the problem. If it goes away until the module warms up again, you can bet it's going bad unless there is a contact problem in the big plug on the bottom side.
Let's hope there's intelligent life somewhere in space 'cause it's buggar all down here. -- Monte Python
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Re: Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Losing spark to both plugs, you might get lucky with just the ignition sensor going bad. There's been a few that have been replaced, but it is rare. It's #1 on this Bike Bandit parts page. I think it's also commonly referred to as the pickup coil.
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Re: Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,308 Likes: 4 |
Fill,
You can always hook a scope up to the little wires from the sensor to see if you are getting a pulse. Probably need just a 40Mhz scope or so to see it. This should at least tell you if it is a sensor or a CDI issue. Maybe Matt can send you his spare unit he has now - it doesn't work in the rain though.
A word to the wise is not necessary. It is the stupid ones who need the advice.
Pat
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Re: Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: May 2007
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1 |
I'll bet a simple piezo alarm speaker fom Radio Shack would read the pulse and give a chirp, that would be a simplistic but inexpensive test tool for the sensor. Freeze spray on the sensor and the ignitor would also be a quick diagnostic tool to identify the culprit. And, there's always the mildly insulting "did you check all of the ground wires?"
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,179
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,179 |
Quote:
One hope for me is that my VIN falls into the Technical Service Bulletin #52 range so I may be able to get it fixed for free!
Hope this is related enough not to count as a hijack.
Here's a link to search Triumph's site by VIN for technical bulletin's pertaining to a particular bike.
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Re: Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 9,223
Big Bore
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OP
Big Bore
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 9,223 |
Thanks for the replies everyone... Quote:
this is the only thing about our bikes that scares me
I hear ya Thanassis. I was lucky it got me back I guess.
Thanks GB. I am very familiar with the location and the cold shot is a great tip. I will try that. btw, the connector on the ignitor is fine...
Hadn't thought about the sensor, Derek. I will look at the signal output from that (now that I am home, I have access to more electronics test equipment). Pat, don't have a scope but I wonder if an analog meter would show the pulse?
Quote:
did you check all of the ground wires?
Not insulted at all Ed! Sometimes trying to look at the big picture, we don't check the basics (which I did! )
I checked that link Tom and of course, my VIN shows nothing. As some extra ammo, I also emailed Peter Carleo with the bulletin number, the gist of the contents, and asked whether Triumph would honor that one years later. I hope to have an answer tomorrow...
"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity" - Robert Heinlein
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Re: Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1
Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1 |
I will be most interested in hearing how this plays out. Intermittent problems are always the hardest to diagnose, especially when the symptoms fluctuate. The only real rule I rely on is to go back to the last thing I did/repaired and take a very close look. Doesn't seem like this applies in your case.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,753
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,753 |
triumph should honor these, way to many have gone bad for it to be looked past. but triumph does seem to turn a blind eye to a lot of this stuff
Frank
(Former)05 BA tbike pipes, ai removed, Freak, mikuni hsr 42's, 904, ported/polished head, 1mm oversized valves
NOW-2010 silver and black tbird
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Re: Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 604
Adjunct
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Adjunct
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 604 |
I'm guessing Derek broke the code on this one.
Pickup coil.
Definitely wanna eliminate that first.
>I wonder if an analog meter would show the pulse?
I tried that when I went through all this.
Couldn't get it to work, but then I'm not too sharp on that kind of stuff.
Mine had the classic one-sided problem.
That's how I knew it wasn't the pickup coil.
Said Molly to James, that's a fine motorbike.
Richard Thompson
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Re: Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Big Bore
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OP
Big Bore
Joined: Jan 2005
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An update (sorta)....
Matt (Mlessard) is lending me an ignitor and it should be here this week. I will run her up and down my street until she it starts acting up and then swap the ignitor. That will either prove or eliminate this part from the equation.
If it is the ignitor, then I will have to take it to the dealer where hopefully invoking Service Bulletin #52 gets it replaced for free. If it's not the ignitor, then I will further troubleshoot it down to the root cause.
"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity" - Robert Heinlein
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Re: Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 320
Adjunct
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Adjunct
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 320 |
Sightglass has an active post on ignition pickup specs that might relate to your problem of misfire. Check it out.
SteveB
"I live the life I love and I love the life I live."
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Re: Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 9,223
Big Bore
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OP
Big Bore
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That will be the next step in shooting this problem if the spare ignitor shows the same symptoms.
"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity" - Robert Heinlein
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Re: Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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I think she is just jelous of the t100
Pete
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Re: Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Quote:
..... then I will have to take it to the dealer where hopefully invoking Service Bulletin #52 gets it replaced for free......
I found a web page that calls out Triumph recalls, but not service bulletins. Where can I find a comprehensive list of Triumph service bulletins for our bikes? The Triumph page doesn't return anything when plugging in all years for the America (re. #52). If exists, sounds like a good link for the "known problems" section of the Tech Vault.
Thanks,
Tom
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Re: Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Big Bore
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OP
Big Bore
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Well, there's no question now. I got Matt's (mlessard) ignitor today and went for a short ride (with the stock ignitor) to warm her up and cause the failure. Sure enough, started cutting out after a bit. Got back to the house, took her apart, swapped in Matt's ignitor and SHE RAN PERFECTLY!!!! Did this swap a couple more times to satisfy my anality and I am now 100% convinced I have a bad ignitor. So now I will take her to the dealer, explain my troubleshooting, invoke Service Bulletin #52, and see what they will do for me. As far as I am concerned, I should pay nothing to have the ignitor replaced and I will get Triumph involved if I have to. Pure Triumph are good people though so I should not have a problem. Matt is letting me hold onto the ignitor until I get mine replaced so now I don't have to lose much riding time either!! Matt, I love you brother. You saved me a chunk of change and effort. Anything you want, anytime, just ask.
"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity" - Robert Heinlein
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Re: Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,047
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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glad its all working out for you captin. Next time your in NY just buy me a Genesee and were square.
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Re: Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
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Phil,
Sorry about the ignitor, hopefully Pure Triumph will take of it for you. Electronics can have many levels of failure, with intermittent being the worst of them. I remember Moe thought he had a bad ignitor and brought it over and we installed it on my bike. My bike ran fine with his ignitor. I can't remember what the final solution was, but it was nice to have someone close to verify if the part was good or bad.
Tom
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin, US author, diplomat, inventor, physicist, politician, & printer (1706 - 1790)
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Re: Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: Dec 2005
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Adjunct
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Adjunct
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 604 |
So far, so good.
A plea for goodwill may turn out to be the ticket.
The dealer's rapport may come into play there.
Let us know how it plays if you don't get sworn to secrecy.
Said Molly to James, that's a fine motorbike.
Richard Thompson
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Re: Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Big Bore
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OP
Big Bore
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Update: Asked the dealer to call Triumph and ask them about this and to please invoke the bulletin. Called back later yesterday and was told that Triumph will not honor this because it was 'too old'.  I have now written to Peter Carleo asking for his help. We shall see....
"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity" - Robert Heinlein
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Re: Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: Jan 2006
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Let us know, it may be time for him to get about 100 notes about never buying another Triumph because the Prince of Darkness is still around and Triumph charges outlandish rates to fix the inherent vice.
I already did one and coils on warranty. If I do one on my dime in the near future, Triumph and I will be getting divorced. The bucks they charge for that box is obscene.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 11,126 Likes: 13 |
Quote:
invoke Service Bulletin #52,
Please be specific when talking to Peter. It is a Technical News Bulletin NOT a Service Bulletin. All dealers have online access to both the service Bulletins and the technical news bulletins.
Blowing gravel off rural roads
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Re: Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Big Bore
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OP
Big Bore
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Thanks Jim. I re-replied to email to Peter and clarified that!
"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity" - Robert Heinlein
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Re: Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Big Bore
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OP
Big Bore
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Out of town Friday and most of today but this past Thursday, I finally got to really run her with Matt's CDI in there instead of a 'bench' check. About 3 miles (aka, hot), she starting cutting out just like with the original. ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?! Nope and did not have a chance to do any more (dealing with leaving) but I now have two right side (alternator cover) gaskets and will delve into there tomorrow. My plan is to check the gap and run her. The saga continues and I hope it's something stupid that I might have done (like every other time I have ever broke her!). Details to follow. If I have to take the cover off, I will be taking lots of pics.
"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity" - Robert Heinlein
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Re: Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,726
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,726 |
Phil, did you see the Triumph tech bulletin about the production change? It was posted on another thread:
Affected Models: Bonneville/T100, America, Speedmaster, Thruxton and Scrambler.
Should a bike (see above) demonstrate faulty ignition coil type symptoms (most commonly an engine misfire), please initially check and adjust the ignition pick-up (IPU) air gap (we recommend an air gap of 0.8mm).
Since changing the IPU air gap in production to 0.8mm, we have had no ignition coil warranty claims.
My bike would misfire and sometimes lose one cylinder firing when hot. The dealer finally replaced both coils and the CDI and it never happened again. They are now making the above changes on any bike with similar problems first. This info was not out when they fixed mine on warranty. The shop manual has the gap at 1.0 mm, so they have made a significant production change.
Bob
2005 America, 904cc - sold. 2014 Trophy SE.
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Re: Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Big Bore
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OP
Big Bore
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I hear ya Bob. First thing I am going to do (beyond checking all other electrical again) is to check that gap. I did see Pete's post about the new spec. Having new gaskets, that cover is coming off just because! btw, has anyone ever tried turning the key off and then on again (which got me home three time now! ) when exhibiting this set of circumstances?
"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity" - Robert Heinlein
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Re: Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: Aug 2005
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Quote:
btw, has anyone ever tried turning the key off and then on again (which got me home three time now! ) when exhibiting this set of circumstances?
When mine got bad I would stop and turn off. Sometimes after sitting 5 min. it would run another 20 miles before acting up again. One time though, I had to cross a 3 mile bridge all on one cylinder as I couldn't pull over and stop.
Bob
2005 America, 904cc - sold. 2014 Trophy SE.
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Re: Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Hi Phil, sorry to hear about your problems, I have just got mine back from the dealers once again. This time they replaced the igniter. I had already replaced two coils as thats what was diagnosed by the RAC (Breakdown and recovery people) the first time it started missing. This is my third igniter and the bike is only just 3 years old, I was lucky enough to have it replaced by Triumph at the dealership. Hopefully this will be the end of it and it should run perfectly now  Hope you get yours sorted out, nothing worse than not feeling comfortable on your bike if you are travelling a distance of any kind..
Ray(UK)
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Re: Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: Mar 2006
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Posts: 1,540 |
My bike died on the road again today. Luckily it was leaving a buddy's house so I only had to push it a 1/4 of a mile back. We did the usual check for gas and I was so sure I couldn't be the cdi that I must just be missing the spark that I pulled the carbs etc.
3 hours later another check for spark. And guess what nothing, thats 2 ignitors in less than 2k miles. I'm very annoyed. In fact I will have a hard time trusting this bike again.
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Re: Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 11,126 Likes: 13 |
Didn't Matt or rather wasn't Matt having problems with his ignitor? SOoooo.....
Blowing gravel off rural roads
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Re: Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Big Bore
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OP
Big Bore
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His ignitor ran fine as long as you didn't get it wet AND then shut her down. With it still cutting out with his, I'd say it's not the ignitor now. Having to work on the refrigerator and the friggin pool pump, I haven't been able to work on her. Now that those are out of the way, my complete focus is on my bike.
"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity" - Robert Heinlein
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Re: Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: May 2007
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
Joined: May 2007
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Phil,
Is it "dry" behind the right side cover? I was going to order some right side gaskets from Chy's place and reset my air gap if it didn't get into a $50 oil change at the same time.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Big Bore
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OP
Big Bore
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No, it's wet but according to the Haynes manual, you can take the cover off and not lose all the oil. Below is the info from that manual. I plan on having a piece of plastic sheeting draped/taped over the frame to force any oil into a catch basin for two reasons. I don't want to lose the oil and I don't want to make a mess!
Another thing I found in chapter 8, section 30 (Alternator rotor and stator, page 8-23) is that they say you do not have to drain the oil if the bike is on the sidestand when removing the alternator cover. They do caution to be ready to catch residual oil (they do not qualify that!)
"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity" - Robert Heinlein
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Re: Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: May 2007
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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Thanks, that's a great answer. I'll get a plastic sheet and a catch pan as well. I really want to check the air gap AND I want to look at the mount to see if there's any possibility of advancing the timing a skosh like you can do on the Honda Shadow...really improved the response on the old ACE advancing a couple of degrees.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: May 2007
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
Joined: May 2007
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Myra in the parts dept. at Chy's new shop was very helpful, gaskets on the way. Thanks again Phil.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Quote:
In fact I will have a hard time trusting this bike again.
Know how you feel Dill, that's just how I feel at this present time, at least I have around the 11000 mile mark on but three igniters is a little much..
Ray(UK)
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Re: Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,540
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Posts: 1,540 |
So what are we going to do about it?
Is there any hope of procom coming through on the aftermaket cause for 150 or so I would carry a spare but for the 700 that triumph wants I might go looking for another bike.
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Re: Another ignitor gone? Opinions?
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,753
Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Posts: 3,753 |
just for the heck of it maybe try unplugging the tps? before i changed the carbs my bike would have a HUGE miss that only happened sometimes. ever since the new carbs with no tps the bike runs perfect
Frank
(Former)05 BA tbike pipes, ai removed, Freak, mikuni hsr 42's, 904, ported/polished head, 1mm oversized valves
NOW-2010 silver and black tbird
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