 Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mouth!)
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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(with apologies to Mr. Hayes...) What's the M/C drive system that seems to put-off some potential buyers? SHAFT!!!(right on!) Okay. Figuring I'd get more of a response here in The Lounge(everybody comes here first to belly up to the bar, you know), I wondered after reading a few of the respones in the Other Bike Forum about the coming new 1500cc "Super Bonnie" probably having shaft-drive, why it seems a few of the guys around here would automatically discount purchasing one of them if it came equiped with this sort of drive system. My take on it in that forum was the following... _____________________________ I've noticed a lot of "anti-shaft-drive" sentiment here. Can one of you guys who feels this way explain what your objections are. Having owned a 1980 Yamaha XS1100(bought new and owned for 15 years), I understand that one objection could be the rear suspension "rise" that some of the older shaft-driven designs had(usually attributed to the swingarm being too short), but most of the newer designs have either a parallelogram-type system(BMW & Motor Guzzi) which cancels this effect, or have longer swingarm/shaft designs which cancels most of this effect. Shafts are basically very low-maintenance and a very clean way to drive the rear wheel, so I don't quite understand the reluctance here. I also understand that it's the least "efficient" method of driving the rear wheel, as it takes more of the engine's power to turn it mechanism 90degrees(twice, if the M/C's crank is "across the frame" and not "inline") in order to function(as compared to the more direct chain or belt system), but I would think that the ease of maintenance and the "cleaner" aspect of this type of system would counteract any liability that one could argue against it. And this new machine IS(evidently) going to be 1500cc in displacement, so I'm thinking any power-loss in a machine this size would be negligibly felt anyway. __________________________________ Thoughts anyone??? 
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mouth!)
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I for one would be perfectly happy with a shaft drive @ 1500 CC. The added displacement will put this machine solidly into contention with the rest of the metric bikes in that class. Not a monster but still in the zone.
The cleanliness and the lack of maintenance need is the seller for me.
Whatever is lost in efficieny is more than made up in time that will not be spent cleaning, lubing, and replacing chains and sprockets.
"Proud to be an Infidel" ... "100% pure American Jingoist"
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Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mout
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"Lighten up, Francis."
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"Lighten up, Francis."
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Yeah, I don't know what the problem is either. Powerloss? Not fixable on the road like a chain? More moving parts and therefore more things to break?
Gee, "shaft drive" works pretty good ON YOUR CAR. In fact, the chain driven transfer case in my '75 Jeep is a bigger problem.
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Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mouth!)
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Loquacious
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we should do this every weekend!
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Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mouth!)
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Fe Butt
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Yep. Pretty much my sentiments too Kevin, though we still haven't heard from the "Loyal Opposition" here in this regard. I just can't figure out why the "antipathy" towards 'em which they seem to harbor.
Loyal Opposition!!! Are you out there???
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mout
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Loquacious
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Quote:
Gee, "shaft drive" works pretty good ON YOUR CAR.
Good point. I have shaft drive on my '96 RT 1100 and I have never given it a thought.
That's 11 years and who knows how many km's ... my speedometer cable broke a long long time ago (coming off a steepish pavement/sidewalk).
Admittedly the "take" is a bit sharp as is very direct and the bike is elevated slightly on changes but that has been eliminated from the latest shaft drives.
I can "live with it" on the upcoming 1500 if the styling is to my liking and the weight is acceptable.
Bedouin.
Blessed are those eyes that have seen more roads than any man! (Homer).
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Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mout
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Fe Butt
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I kind'a know what you're sayin' FJ, but the probability of a shaft breaking is pretty remote, I'd think. I had very good luck with my old XS1100 for example.
I guess everything is a compromise, and everybody has a certain set of particulars that they look at before they make their choices, but I sensed a greater degree of regret about this shaft-drive notice by some of the guys here than I thought this anouncement would solicit.
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mout
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"Lighten up, Francis."
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"Lighten up, Francis."
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Quote:
Yep. Pretty much my sentiments too Kevin, though we still haven't heard from the "Loyal Opposition" here in this regard. I just can't figure out why the "antipathy" towards 'em which they seem to harbor.
Loyal Opposition!!! Are you out there???
Maybe it's the same ephemeral reason that some people don't like fuel injection or water cooling on motorcycles. I see that a lot in the local Harley crowd.
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Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mout
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I haven't seen the negative responses yet. I'm not even sure what they are. Isn't the Rocket III a shaft drive? It doesn't seem to interfere with all the torque that thing's got.
The lack of chain hassles would seem to be a big plus.
Bob
2005 America, 904cc - sold. 2014 Trophy SE.
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Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mout
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Saddle Sore
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Saddle Sore
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In the coming age of fuel injection , shaft drives and alloy wheels , the things that attracted me to the '05 Bonnie were wire spokes , carburetors and chain drive . These are the traditional things that sometimes cry out for human intervention . A totally maintenance - free system can be tantamount to boredom . It's theraputic for some to be able to tweak and tune and repair . I ' m a hopeless romantic and purist , locked into a mechanical age , albeit we must be able to adapt to the inevitable , much is to be said about the heritage of the age of machinery . The bewildered impotent mechanic - the tragic victim of a technical world .  
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Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mout
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Quote:
In the coming age of fuel injection , shaft drives and alloy wheels , the things that attracted me to the '05 Bonnie were wire spokes , carburetors and chain drive . These are the traditional things that sometimes cry out for human intervention . A totally maintenance - free system can be tantamount to boredom . It's theraputic for some to be able to tweak and tune and repair . I ' m a hopeless romantic and purist , locked into a mechanical age , albeit we must be able to adapt to the inevitable , much is to be said about the heritage of the age of machinery . The bewildered impotent mechanic - the tragic victim of a technical world .
Yeah, but BMW has had wire spokes and shaft drive since the Kaiser was in power, so shaft drive isn't exactly new fangled technology ya know! I loved it on my Sabre back in 91, wish I had it now. Was kind of neat in it's own way to just pull an axle bolt and slide it off of the spline...
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Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mout
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Joined: Jan 2005
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"Lighten up, Francis."
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"Lighten up, Francis."
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Quote:
In the coming age of fuel injection , shaft drives and alloy wheels , the things that attracted me to the '05 Bonnie were wire spokes , carburetors and chain drive . These are the traditional things that sometimes cry out for human intervention . A totally maintenance - free system can be tantamount to boredom . It's theraputic for some to be able to tweak and tune and repair . I ' m a hopeless romantic and purist , locked into a mechanical age , albeit we must be able to adapt to the inevitable , much is to be said about the heritage of the age of machinery . The bewildered impotent mechanic - the tragic victim of a technical world .
Okay, that makes it bad for you. Often, and I'm not at all pointing a finger at you, people condemn something like shaft drive (fuel injection, et al) as if it's bad in general (I understand the desire to fiddle and tweak) or worse, morally wrong. Are these people actually reflecting what you said and turning it into a declarative statement hiding their own biases/preferences?
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Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mout
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Saddle Sore
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Saddle Sore
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Even though Shaft MAY have had a bad mother , he seems to have done well ,and triumphed , and that's what ultimately matters . ps - "triumphed" establishes relevancy in this here thread . 
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Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mouth!)
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Adjunct
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I have a shaft drive on my Vulcan 750 (yea I know its ugly) and I've never had any touble with it. I like it and personslly think all the talk about "shaft jacking" is over done... By the way that stock 750 will out move out qiucker than my new BA.
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Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mouth!)
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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I actually liked the shaft drive on my 82 Magna, virtually maintenance free so I could concentrate on my weekly commute from NC to AL and never worry about lube or tension. As for the "jacking" phenomenon, I never noticed it anywhere from 0 to 90 mph. Bring it on 
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mout
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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My 64 BMW has shaft drive and I love it.All I ever do to that bike is change the oil and put tires on it.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mout
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Learned Hand
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My only beef with shaft drive is you are stuck with the gearing. I've owned several bikes with shaft, and did not had a problem with any of them.
As for things you can "fiddle with", fuel injection is extremely flexible. The only difference is you just use a PC instead of a screwdriver. Ebmrace the future, boys and girls.
2002 Bandit 1200/ GSXR cams/ 1277 BB Kit/ Holeshot header and can/ 38mm flatslides/ a good head/lotsa hp/lotsa tq- lots of rear tires...
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Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mout
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Well let's hope they make a better one than BMW is lately. Taking a look at this thread shows a survey of 350 bikes where this a 1 in 8 chance of your shaft drive failure in the first 50,000 miles. And that's not a cheap item to replace. Now you might say; that's BMW, this is a Triumph. Well then we'll go to the Rocket III. Triumph has already been subjected to this recall on Rocket IIIs for leaking final drives. But it's not just trust in your final drive that leads me away from shaft driven bikes. Repairs are definitely more expensive than chain or belt. There's also ease of changing the final drive ratio with a chain and sprocket setup. How many of us in here have changed their front sprockets out to a different size to suit their riding style? Well you can forget about doing that with a shaft drive. Whatever they put in there, is what you're stuck with. Now most people hate messing with chain maintenance. I personally don't mind, and it takes me all of 5-10 minutes to do it. My only wish is if they could come up with a chain and sprocket set that could last 50,000 miles. Otherwise, a chain is just fine for me.
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Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mout
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All very good points. But a 1500 CC machine is likely to not have us reaching for another gear regardless of its final drive.
That extra displacement will or at least should fill the void that Triumph has and needs to compete with Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, and Kawasaki in the cruiser category.
The rocket being the horsepower mad machine it is has no egual in terms of sheer grunt.
I'd think that a nicely engineered Triumph at 1500 CC will be an ideal highway cruiser for all but those who crave sheer horsepower and who want a bike that runs less thah 17K out the door
"Proud to be an Infidel" ... "100% pure American Jingoist"
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 Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mouth!)
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Steelheart- '03 Speedmaster Black/Yellow
The Hayabusa Killa
16" Shorties/140 mains/Airbox drilled
Procom CDI
"There is no cure for Celibacy. But we can treat the symptoms."
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Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mout
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The final drive ratio doesn't really have much to do with the amount of CCs. It's the way the bike's transmission is geared, and the final drive ratio. But I'm sure Triumph will come up with something along the lines of what they put in the Rocket.
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Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mout
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Loquacious
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you can get a rocket 3 for 13k.
we should do this every weekend!
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Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mout
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13K ? Used? I would not mind having one to ride from time to time ...but they are FUGLY looking. (Rocket 3)
Hoepefully the 1500 CC curisers will be attractive to look at as well as providing more grunt then our otherwise near perfect Americas and Speedies
"Proud to be an Infidel" ... "100% pure American Jingoist"
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Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mout
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Loquacious
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13k new in Chattanooga, TN
we should do this every weekend!
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Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mout
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Saddle Sore
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Here's my opinion. Yeah I know everyone has one and they all stink.
I hope if this mystical 1500-1600 is ever brought to production it is water cooled(please not that monster on the rocket), fuel injected, six speed with Yes A Shaft Drive.
I understand the true Brit lovers will probably die with disgust but we aint living in 1968 anymore. And were not riding 650 Bonnies anymore. Times change, if you are going to survive as a company you better at least keep up with the competition.
If Triumph is truly serious about expanding their customer base and let's face it that's what business is all about.
Build this thing! It's what most guys in the 40-50 year old range are looking for in a Cruiser.
Remember how excited we were with rumors of the Rocket,then the beast appeared and most people took one look and was turned off. If Triumph will build a good looking Big Parallel Twin they could kick the crap out of the Metric pretenders.
Let the flaming begin!
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Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mout
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a.c. & heat would be a plus too.
we should do this every weekend!
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Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mout
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Nothing wrong with a shaft drive(still have an xs1100),but I am just an old stick in the mud. I think chain drives are cool.
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Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mout
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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Well, apparently it's just a subjective choice. Some like chains, because they like 'em. Some hate shafts, because they hate 'em. (Here's the ball buddy, how far you gonna run  )
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mout
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Learned Hand
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Strangler
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Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mout
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Hate is an awful strong word there Bill. I wouldn't go that far. I don't even seriously dislike shaft drives, but on our current bikes, I don't think it'd fit in with the overall retro design we have. Btw, I like redheads, but I don't hate blondes. Just had to put that in there since my anniversary is in 3 days. 
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Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mout
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Check Pants
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Check Pants
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Quote:
I understand the true Brit lovers will probably die with disgust but we aint living in 1968 anymore.
But Mike, the music was really, really good  . '68 was a vintage year, the Stones are still touring, well except for Keith Richards. Triumph is still making so-called geezer bikes, some Yutes even ride them around . All that stuff in the rumored 1500 sounds fine to me; shaft, FI, water cooler. I am kind of partial to chains in a time warpy sorta way however. Now if Brent will come up with a proper kick start????????????
jh
"It's not what I say that's important, it's what you hear" Red Auerbach
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Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mout
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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Well, I wasn't pickin' on you Derek . Just making a general statement. Happy anniversary to you and Linda . Mine's in seven days . (A redhead too, BTW)
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mout
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Learned Hand
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I dont mind shaft drive, my old R100RS had it. never gave any bother. I read a report in one of the magazines last year that most of the noise generated by a bike is from the chain drive system, and now that we have whisper quiet emissions from our silencers ( When standard  ) The noise generated by the chain drive is an area where manufactures can cut down noise to meet the standard. I think the test in the mag was a standard Honda Fireblade was driven past as required under the test with the engine on and then with the engine off. There was virtualy no difference in the noise recorded. It is an area where manufactures can cut noise hence thicker chain caseings, rubber inserts in sprockets.
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Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mout
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Monkey Butt
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Dwight, they don't hate shaft, they hate shaft on Triumph, and as stated would be happy with kick starters too. Quote:
By the way that stock 750 will move out quicker than my new BA.
surprised nobody said that can't happen with our speed demons with chains.
Everything I have seen, read, heard, or thought, makes shaft a good technology. Belts are better. They are quiet, clean, transfer HP to the wheel well, pulley size can be changed, generally last a long time, and are cheap to maintain.
The Rocket has a shaft, so the mini-rocket will have one too for ease of production at Triumph not because its best for the consumer.
Shaft is still used in bikes because it works and its easy to install on the assembly line. It always outlives the warranty so is good for the company. Generally lives long enough so the original owner doesn't get stuck with the repair bills so is OK for the consumer.
Triumph mid sized with water and a shaft is like V-Rod. It has the plate on the tank that says its a Triumph, other than that ?? you are not buying the most powerful bike (R3)or a classic, or a reputation as it won't have one yet. May as well get the tried and true Hondayamakawasuki that you know won't break.
Even though this new bike will, in a few years, kill our bikes for new and resale, its good that Triumph is moving forward toward what the masses want. The majority of people today simply don't want chains on the cruisers.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mout
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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No lubing every 500 miles, no trying to get the chain lube grime off the rear wheel and spokes, no worry about the chain breaking or replacing after 20-30,000 miles. Yeah, I would really hate a shaft...not.
"Catching a yellow jacket in your shirt at seventy miles per hour can double your vocabulary" Author unknown
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Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mout
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If you look at the most high selling batch of metric cruisers out there....the Honda VTX, The Yamaha Roadstar Series, The Hot rod Suzuki cruiser, The Kawasakis.....vulcan 2000 or even the 900 all are shaft drive are they not?
Cruisers by definition are just that...cruisers not specifically designed to be all out performers in the quarter mile although from what I have read the Suzuki M109 is a very good performance cruiser at 1783 somewhat smaller than the Honda VTX 1800 , The vulcan 2000 or the Yamaha Roadstars.
I think that what the target consumer is looking for in a cruiser is good smooth usable linear power all across the power band and in the engine size from 1300 to 2000 CC a shaft drive simply makes sense.
Triumph is going in the right direction.
"Proud to be an Infidel" ... "100% pure American Jingoist"
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Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mout
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Quote:
If you look at the most high selling batch of metric cruisers out there....the Honda VTX, The Yamaha Roadstar Series, The Hot rod Suzuki cruiser, The Kawasakis.....vulcan 2000 or even the 900 all are shaft drive are they not?
Cruisers by definition are just that...cruisers not specifically designed to be all out performers in the quarter mile although from what I have read the Suzuki M109 is a very good performance cruiser at 1783 somewhat smaller than the Honda VTX 1800 , The vulcan 2000 or the Yamaha Roadstars.
I think that what the target consumer is looking for in a cruiser is good smooth usable linear power all across the power band and in the engine size from 1300 to 2000 CC a shaft drive simply makes sense.
Triumph is going in the right direction.
What he said.
Doesn't everybody's life revolve around food?
"Remember,
People are more violently opposed to fur than leather because it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs."
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Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mout
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I love my R1150RT, as I have the other 3 BMWs, but I love that chain on my America. Well the 1500 might be great, depending on its overall impression. Hope it will not look like an Rocket3 or a Daytona-as I hate the looks of both of them.
Keep your powder dry
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Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mout
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I would love a shaft drive on my bike, but maybe I'm a little lazy. I can see wanting a traditional style Bonnie keeping the chain. If it has a shaft and is 1500, why not just have it a different moniker. In my stinky opinion a 1500 America/Speedmaster should have a shaft drive. In fact, I'd get a belt conversion if I could afford one. Just cause I tend to forget to lub it often enough. (bad me)
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Re: Shaft!!! It's a bad mother...?(watch your mout
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Quote:
Here's my opinion....
I hope if this mystical 1500-1600 is ever brought to production it is [1]water cooled(please not that monster on the rocket), [2]fuel injected, [3]six speed with [4]Yes A Shaft Drive.
Mike, my opinion of your requests:
Numbers 2 and 3---most definately would like to see.
Number 4---probably wouldn't effect my decision to own, one way or the other.
AH...but Number 1---here's where we differ. While not wishing to appear to be any sort of a "Luddite" here , I have to say that I have yet to have ever been taken with the looks of any water-cooled motorcycle engine.
First, radiators are, well, ugly! Even when they are placed between the front down-tubes of the frame(a la Kawasaki) in order to hide them...they're still, well, ugly, especially on "naked" bikes where there is no plastic to hide them. I suppose you could hide them under the seat(a la the Britten racebike), but then air ducts and fans would have to be utilized in order to get airflow through them.
Secondly, to me the finning on the barrels of a motorcycle engine is what gives it "The Look". Some Metric cruisers and the Harley V-Rod have "somewhat" successfully created "The Look"(in my opinion), but never totally. Once you put water-jackets on those barrels, the finning on them seems to me to be just an attempt to improve the aesthetics of it, and as I stated, I feel the engineers have never been completely successful in these attempts.
From what I've heard, the new "Super-Bonnie" will be air/oil-cooled, just as are the present Bonneville models. To this I say...THANK GOD!!
(BTW...you're right about 1968. '68 wasn't a particularly good year, unless you were an ASSASSIN I suppose ...wait a minute, the new for 1968 EL CAMINO was pretty cool, RIGHT???!!!)
Last edited by Dwight; 07/03/2007 1:57 PM.
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Can't re-gear.
