Bonneville America Forums Forums Rider Safety Forums Riding Technique Getting over it mentally

ok, here's the deal, I'm still fairly new to riding, I've only ridden 3500 or so. A while back, say around the 2000 mile mark I was coming around a corner at 35mph and hit a patch of sand, lost control of the rear wheel and went down, sprained both of my wrists, had a little damage to the speedy but not too bad. Now I'm having a little trouble getting comfortable turning. I'm doing fine at speeds below 50 or so it's the highway that kills me. Everytime I start going around a corner I drop speed and visions of my rear tire sliding out from under me and me sliding under a truck flash through my head. Has anyone else had trouble getting over an accident that could offer any help? Anyone have or know where I could see pictures of someone on a speedy leaned over really far? (I was thinking that seeing it might make it easier for me to do.) Anyone have any tips at all to help me get more comfrotable with turning at speeds?

When you say highway, just what kind of turns are we talking here? Are they sweepers or tight turns with 20 mph yellow triangle signs posted?

Anyway, best thing to do is just to ride to build up your confidence again. One thing to do is to scan the road way ahead for objects and those little piles of sand or wet spots. Take a late apex(here's a page with diagrams) into the corner so you can see as much of the road up ahead as possible. It also gives you a better line into the corner, which makes evasive manuevers easier if there is that patch of sand in the road. Look through the turn, if you're not already doing it, and not on the pavement right in front of you. One thing you don't want to do is to decelerate all the way through the curve. You should be rolling on the throttle by the midpoint of the curve which helps you to maintain balance.

You don't have to lean over really far on our bikes to go quickly through the curves Our bikes easily take corners at 15 to 20 mph over those typical yellow signs without touching the pegs down.

Here I go again. This is the very reason I think everyone should start out on a small dirt bike (100cc). You get a feel for traction and rear wheel sliding. If you fall, you fall at low speeds in an empty field. It's still not too late to pick up a used dirt bike. They can be found for $500-$1000 with a little searching.

Your problem now is you've had a bad situation that occurred once. And you never want it to happen again. Understandable, but it's better to make this situation happen again and again in a safe, controlled environment, and learn to manage that slide, straighten it out, and not crash. You'll learn more in a month on dirt than in six months on the street.

Riding bikes is more of a mind thing than a coordination excersise. Learning to steer and gear comes fairly quickly, but learning to control your mind will never stop (where you look, how you read traffic, reacting to problems, planning lane control, etc.). This seems to be where you're at. You need to read as much as you can, and practise what you learn to gain confidence in your ride.

There's good advise in these forums, and the following books are excellent reads.

Ride Hard, Ride Smart
Proficient Motorcycling 1
Proficient Motorcycling 2
Total Control

They are great books - I have read three of them.

Great suggestions all.(I especially like Derek's take on the "late apex approach to curves giving one a better view ahead" thing)

It does take a little while to get back that confidence in your "contact patch" again Tim, but don't dispair. View these "incidence" as a learning tool.

But Brian, while I understand the dirtbike experience being one of those possible tools(and I especially like your take about newbies getting "too much motorcycle" for their own good)...there is a distinct difference in riding technique required in the dirt as compared to the paved road, and sometimes they conflict in style. I've seen too many dirt-oriented riders place their inside foot down on the pavement in turns when it isn't required or desirable to do so.

I had the chance to follow SalMaglie around the mountains a bit ago. Do what he does in that you look where you want to go and go there.

You probably fell off the bike because you drove it like a car. On curves they can lean and slide a whole lot before they go down.

Start slowly on a little twisty road. Enter the curve and look at the place in the curve you want to be, not straight ahead and your body will take the bike there. The bike will not fail you and it will not slide out on the slow practice curves. Once you get the hang of it increase the speed a bit per day.

It is doable to get past that fear.

Ok I grew up in the dirt....and if anything i did my body MORE damage BECAUSE of that dirt "training" I layed my Goldwing down doing 65 around an off ramp (no that was NOT excessive speed for THAT ramp) I had ridden that ramp for the last 11 years never any issues...I had ridden bikes for over 20 at the time...this day some truck had DUMPED oil the entire length of the ramp...so down she went but BEFORE the final "fishtail" I tried to RIGHT the bike by PLANTING my foot (just like on the dirt) but it's a Gold wing doing 65 not some KZ doing 20...your sitiation is similar in that it's a fluke thing and has little to do with your bikes ability (or your's) to "stick" in a corner...keep riding is the only advise I can give you...take it easy and keep riding...your confidence in your ability and your machines will grow and you WILL get beyond this...just keep Riding....I left the road for 6 years and MAN the ghosts get bigger and spookier...keep riding....

Whatever you do notwithstanding, you will probably still have residual thoughts of that spill for some time. About a year and a half ago, I broke my neck (C1 cervical vertebrae) in a bike race, and to this day everytime I negotiate a very sharp, fast turn, I have flashbacks. Hopefully you will quickly put it behind you, but it is more difficult after spending 5 months in a stiff neck brace.

One thing you might do is relax your grip a little, look ahead and keep your head in the turn all the way. Looking ahead and not down is the key to reducing your perception of the apparent speed, keeping our head in the turn will automatically guide your bike. Remember, it's a skill and that means practice

Yet another very good piece of advice there, Edward....EDWARD TURNER III???!!!(as per your bio???!!!)

Gentlemen, and Lady(that's YOU Gina)...I give you the grandson of the dude responsible for making Triumph the hallowed marque in motorcycling that it became!

Okay, maybe not. BUT, that IS an excellent point about keeping your head up(in fact, almost purposely craneing one's neck UP to an extreme angle to whichever direction one is turning). Watch most roadracers on the track and you can see them doing this. This practice removes much of the "target fixation" problem many new(and even some expericenced) riders are prone to. Try it and you'll quickly find out that your turns are smoother AND you'll tend to "go wide" much less in those turns if you constantly look for that "late apex".

And Gina....Don't worry too much about starting to agree with me more in the future.

You're sure to find yourself doing THAT a heck of a lot more the older you get, kid!

(of course, THIS may be the very thing Pete and the Boys lamented happening back in the day when they cried..."Hope I die before I get old!"

I agree with oldroadie

Look through the corner
Let your instincts draw you through it
NEVER look down

It's the same for grooved pavement and road ripples -
DON'T look down

Hey, Dwight, don't I wish that was my Grand Dad? Sorry, just a coincidence as far as I know. Oh, how I do love the looks of a vintage speed twin...

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so down she went but BEFORE the final "fishtail" I tried to RIGHT the bike by PLANTING my foot (just like on the dirt)

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A lot of dirt in my background too. It's amazing how those old instincts pop out when they shouldn't isn't it? I've caught myself almost doing the same.

Best advice, keep your head in it.
Dirt is different than street.

And practice, Tim.
If you can find a good road with light traffic and some variety of curves, start taking the curves with the late apex technique and build your speed at a comfortable level.
Before you know it, you'll be having fun again.

.

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Has anyone (or everyone) else noticed that when moving through a favorite piece of road at something above the "yellow signed" suggested speed, with the planets all lined up, you exceed some undefined "mph" and everything suddenly unfolds in slooooooooooooow moooooooooootion?? Especially executing a long series of "S" curves...................

more

jwh

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Yes, it's called being IN THE ZONE!

"Submitted for your approval....
A man known as "Freedom" to his many friends is riding his motorcycle along sceanic Montana highways. He spots a signpost up ahead which reads...."

(yep, you guessed it)

He didn't spill his wine on ya did he?

Thanks for all the tips, it has helped a lot. The biggest problem was looking ahead in a turn instead of looking down. I knew what I was supposed to do but I didn't realize until you guys pointed it out that in turns I was looking 5 feet infront of me for that next patch of sand. It's 150 miles since I poseted this thread and already your tips have made a world of difference. I still have work to do but I'm improving. Thanks everyone.

I've come to realize riding is all about decisions. You have to decide to look ahead. Decide to pay attention to traffic, etc. Sometimes you have to fight instinct to do it tho.

This might help. These are the results of a study at USC on about 4500 accidents.

Timothy- In this study, over half of all accidents were with riders that had less than 5 months experience riding their motorcycle. Additionally, you fall into a minority group of about 25% of the accidents. They are a single vehicle accidents. Of that 25%, only 2% are from trash on the roads. The likely hood of that exact thing happening again are very unlikely. the majority of accidents (75%) involve another vehicle.

Brian, I agree with you. I had the rear of mine come around just last week, and drawing from my dirt bike days I was able to powerslide through it- it was kinda fun, actually. See # 23. Riders with dirt bike experience were underrepresented in the study.


1. Approximately three-fourths of these motorcycle accidents involved collision with another vehicle, which was most usually a passenger automobile.

2. Approximately one-fourth of these motorcycle accidents were single vehicle accidents involving the motorcycle colliding with the roadway or some fixed object in the environment.

3. Vehicle failure accounted for less than 3% of these motorcycle accidents, and most of those were single vehicle accidents where control was lost due to a puncture flat.

4. In the single vehicle accidents, motorcycle rider error was present as the accident precipitating factor in about two-thirds of the cases, with the typical error being a slide out and fall due to over braking or running wide on a curve due to excess speed or under-cornering.

5. Roadway defects (pavement ridges, potholes, etc.) were the accident cause in 2% of the accidents; animal involvement was 1% of the accidents.

6. In the multiple vehicle accidents, the driver of the other vehicle violated the motorcycle right-of-way and caused the accident in two-thirds of those accidents.

7. The failure of motorists to detect and recognize motorcycles in traffic is the predominating cause of motorcycle accidents. The driver of the other vehicle involved in collision with the motorcycle did not see the motorcycle before the collision, or did not see the motorcycle until too late to avoid the collision.

8. Deliberate hostile action by a motorist against a motorcycle rider is a rare accident cause. The most frequent accident configuration is the motorcycle proceeding straight then the automobile makes a left turn in front of the oncoming motorcycle.

9. Intersections are the most likely place for the motorcycle accident, with the other vehicle violating the motorcycle right-of-way, and often violating traffic controls.

10. Weather is not a factor in 98% of motorcycle accidents.

11. Most motorcycle accidents involve a short trip associated with shopping, errands, friends, entertainment or recreation, and the accident is likely to happen in a very short time close to the trip origin.

12. The view of the motorcycle or the other vehicle involved in the accident is limited by glare or obstructed by other vehicles in almost half of the multiple vehicle accidents.

13. Conspicuity of the motorcycle is a critical factor in the multiple vehicle accidents, and accident involvement is significantly reduced by the use of motorcycle headlamps (on in daylight) and the wearing of high visibility yellow, orange or bright red jackets. (Note: the statistics which have just been released here in Australia - August 1996, DO NOT SHOW that "Lights on" legislation has worked!)

14. Fuel system leaks and spills were present in 62% of the motorcycle accidents in the post-crash phase. This represents an undue hazard for fire.

15. The median pre-crash speed was 29.8 mph, and the median crash speed was 21.5 mph, and the one-in-a-thousand crash speed is approximately 86 mph.

16. The typical motorcycle pre-crash lines-of-sight to the traffic hazard portray no contribution of the limits of peripheral vision; more than three- fourths of all accident hazards are within 45 degrees of either side of straight ahead.

17. Conspicuity of the motorcycle is most critical for the frontal surfaces of the motorcycle and rider.
18. defects related to accident causation are rare and likely to be due to deficient or defective maintenance.

19. Motorcycle riders between the ages of 16 and 24 are significantly over-represented in accidents; motorcycle riders between the ages of 30 and 50 are significantly under represented. Although the majority of the accident-involved motorcycle riders are male (96%), the female motorcycle riders are significantly over represented in the accident data.

20. Craftsmen, laborers, and students comprise most of the accident-involved motorcycle riders. Professionals, sales workers, and craftsmen are under represented and laborers, students and unemployed are over- represented in the accidents.

21. Motorcycle riders with previous recent traffic citations and accidents are over represented in the accident data.

22. T he motorcycle riders involved in accidents are essentially without training; 92% were self-taught or learned from family or friends. Motorcycle rider training experience reduces accident involvement and is related to reduced injuries in the event of accidents.

23. More than half of the accident-involved motorcycle riders had less than 5 months experience on the accident motorcycle, although the total street riding experience was almost 3 years. Motorcycle riders with dirt bike experience are significantly under represented in the accident data.

24. Lack of attention to the driving task is a common factor for the motorcyclist in an accident.

25. Almost half of the fatal accidents show alcohol involvement.

26. Motorcycle riders in these accidents showed significant collision avoidance problems. Most riders would over brake and skid the rear wheel, and under brake the front wheel greatly reducing collision avoidance deceleration. The ability to counter steer and swerve was essentially absent.

27. The typical motorcycle accident allows the motorcyclist just less than 2 seconds to complete all collision avoidance action.

28. Passenger-carrying motorcycles are not over represented in the accident area.

29. The driver of the other vehicles involved in collision with the motorcycle are not distinguished from other accident populations except that the ages of 20 to 29, and beyond 65 are over represented. Also, these drivers are generally unfamiliar with motorcycles.

30. The large displacement motorcycles are under represented in accidents but they are associated with higher injury severity when involved in accidents.

31. Any effect of motorcycle color on accident involvement is not determinable from these data, but is expected to be insignificant because the frontal surfaces are most often presented to the other vehicle involved in the collision.

32. Motorcycles equipped with fairings and windshields are under represented in accidents, most likely because of the contribution to conspicuity and the association with more experienced and trained riders.

33. Motorcycle riders in these accidents were significantly without motorcycle license, without any license, or with license revoked.

34. Motorcycle modifications such as those associated with the semi-chopper or cafe racer are definitely over represented in accidents.

35. The likelihood of injury is extremely high in these motorcycle accidents-98% of the multiple vehicle collisions and 96% of the single vehicle accidents resulted in some kind of injury to the motorcycle rider; 45% resulted in more than a minor injury.

36. Half of the injuries to the somatic regions were to the ankle-foot, lower leg, knee, and thigh-upper leg.

37. Crash bars are not an effective injury countermeasure; the reduction of injury to the ankle-foot is balanced by increase of injury to the thigh-upper leg, knee, and lower leg. 38.The use of heavy boots, jacket, gloves, etc., is effective in preventing or reducing abrasions and lacerations, which are frequent but rarely severe injuries.

39. Groin injuries were sustained by the motorcyclist in at least 13% of the accidents, which typified by multiple vehicle collision in frontal impact at higher than average speed.

40. Injury severity increases with speed, alcohol involvement and motorcycle size.

41. Seventy-three percent of the accident-involved motorcycle riders used no eye protection, and it is likely that the wind on the unprotected eyes contributed in impairment of vision which delayed hazard detection.

42. Approximately 50% of the motorcycle riders in traffic were using safety helmets but only 40% of the accident-involved motorcycle riders were wearing helmets at the time of the accident.

43. Voluntary safety helmet use by those accident-involved motorcycle riders was lowest for untrained, uneducated, young motorcycle riders on hot days and short trips.

44. The most deadly injuries to the accident victims were injuries to the chest and head.

45. The use of the safety helmet is the single critical factor in the prevention of reduction of head injury; the safety helmet which complies with FMVSS 218 is a significantly effective injury countermeasure.

46. Safety helmet use caused no attenuation of critical traffic sounds, no limitation of pre crash visual field, and no fatigue or loss of attention; no element of accident causation was related to helmet use.

47. FMVSS 218 provides a high level of protection in traffic accidents, and needs modification only to increase coverage at the back of the head and demonstrate impact protection of the front of full facial coverage helmets, and insure all adult sizes for traffic use are covered by the standard.

48. Helmeted riders and passengers showed significantly lower head and neck injury for all types of injury, at all levels of injury severity.

49. The increased coverage of the full facial coverage helmet increases protection, and significantly reduces face injuries.

50. There is not liability for neck injury by wearing a safety helmet; helmeted riders had less neck injuries than unhelmeted riders. Only four minor injuries were attributable to helmet use, and in each case the helmet prevented possible critical or fatal head injury.

51. Sixty percent of the motorcyclists were not wearing safety helmets at the time of the accident. Of this group, 26% said they did not wear helmets because they were uncomfortable and inconvenient, and 53% simply had no expectation of accident involvement.

52. Valid motorcycle exposure data can be obtained only from collection at the traffic site. Motor vehicle or driver license data presents information which is completely unrelated to actual use.

53. Less than 10% of the motorcycle riders involved in these accidents had insurance of any kind to provide medical care or replace property.

Wow, pretty interesting read!

Soren

Don't get to hung up on the looking ahead though Tim. You do have to spot hazards directly in front of you in addition to everywhere else.

A friend of mine dumped his bike in a slow speed turn in an intersection. I asked him what happened and he said he hit a patch of sand. I asked why he did not see it and he told me the instructors at the MSF told him to keep his head level and eyes out front. He NEVER looked down! I told him you have to scan everywhere, including right in front of you. Just don't keep staring at right in front of you. He's now getting better at it and has not gone down since.

Perhaps a rider safety course would help you regain your confidence? I started there and then learned from the best over several years of attending the Georgia Rally. I am not even in their league (and they know who they are), but I like to think that I am making progress. Once you combine proper technique and practice, the result is confidence. I know it is cliche, but you must "trust it" in the twisties. Indecision can lead to disaster.

Good luck, and ride safe.

Ryan

Phil,

Yes, you should be looking for any hazards out there, but Tim was having a problem looking too close in front of his wheel.

"I knew what I was supposed to do but I didn't realize until you guys pointed it out that in turns I was looking 5 feet in front of me for that next patch of sand."

Unless you're about stopped in the road, there's just no way you're going to have enough time to react when something is 5 feet in front of you if you're going at normal speed. That's not to say you should be looking at the horizon at all times, but when you scan for these sand patches, you have to look farther than 5 feet in front of you. You should be able to spot them before the turn and be able to adjust your speed and line accordingly.

I'm glad to hear Tim is making progress. A riding course is a good tip. Around here, the MSF Experienced Rider Course is $80, but can vary in different areas of the country.

I'm at work right now but when I get home the books Ride Hard, Ride Smart and Total Control should be on my doorstep.

I have been thinking about the Experienced Rider Course but I work 6 or 7 days a week. And trying to find the time... I know it would help a lot but I think I'll have to read my books, put in the practice time on the road, and see where I stand from there. But just to keep everyone posted, I feel more and more confident everytime I get on my bike,

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but Tim was having a problem looking too close in front of his wheel

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Oops!

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I feel more and more confident everytime I get on my bike

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Excellent!!

The Experienced Rider Course is just half a day, usually on a Saturday or Sunday. It can also give you a discount on your insurance with some companies. I get something like a 15% discount with Progressive. Just got my annual renewal notice and my premium is now down to $150 a year with a $125 deductible.

Same thing happened to me only it was unexpected mud. Now if I see something like that I keep that back wheel turning and have gotten through everything fine-7K miles now. Worse thing you can do is come off the power or hit the brakes. I grant there will be times you could do down no matter what you do, but keep that back wheel turning and you have a better chance of getting through it. These bikes are great handlers and given power they will get through a lot of stuff you wouldn't think they could.

The videos and rider courses suggested are great ideas also.

To completely cure yourself, go find an empty parking lot that you can ride in, and go do turns in it. Left. right, tight, easy, slow, fast as is safe in the space available, etc. Step 2 is to park, relax and visualize turning as vividly as you possibly can. Throw in some hazards and visualize various ways to deal with them, playing it through to the final outcome. This pre-programmes your reactions so you can better deal with sand and water hazards, idiot motorists, etc. Step 3 is to go do some more turns. Repeat until you are no longer bothered by turning.
Oh, one of the tricks is to always look where you want to go because you invariably go where you are looking.

Bryan, thanks for posting the crash list data. Very interesting read. I sent it to everyone in my bike group.

I have recently gotten back into riding, and found myself afraid to use the front brake for a while. It seemed that I was quite often locking up the rear wheel. I've now, after replacing the rear pads, been using the front brake a lot more and with more confidence.

Probably the biggest thing I've been working on is to try and enter corners smoothly, without sudden additional braking efforts or down-shifts through the turn.

Good luck,

Gerry