Bonneville America Forums Forums Rider Safety Forums Riding Technique A Problem Practicing Slow Turns

Hi all,
I have been practicing in a parking lot and to improve my slow turning skills I'm doing slow figure 8s and also starting up from a turning position imediately into a slow turn. I'm improving except for this : Almost every time I get to (or near) the lock position in my slow turn my steering 'feels' like it wants to do just that- 'LOCK' and stay there. It is like I can't seem to overcome the rake and gravity in time to change directions and to keep myself up. I don't feel comfortable enough to let it have more clutch friction or throttle. At the point where I have the problem I have to add more back brake and stick my foot out to break the inevitable fall over of my bike.(I haven't laid the bike all the way down yet.)
If I were to give this feeling an analogy, it would be of a pilot in a plane stuck in a spiraling dive towards the ground. I assume that I should speed up with clutch friction when I am at this "lock/fall over point" but it just doesn't seem right to me because of the extreme turn angle that I'm in. Any advise on this is very much appreciated. ps-I have been away from biking for a long time and I am sheduled to take the msf safety course to get my self up to snuff.

Thanks in advance,
Bob

I'll tell you a funny story about locked wheel turns. I was a motorcycle police officer at the time. My ride was a very heavy (metal side bags, big metal radio box, etc.) 1963 Pan Head. We took our bikes home, and one day I was washing and cleaning it, and I dropped it. I couldn't get it up, so I enlisted the help of a police officer who lived a few houses down. He was a monster who could literally carry a washing machine in his arms. He got it upright.

We used to park our motors in front of the police station, and if you approached from the South it required about a 270 degree tight turn to align to the proper parking angle. That day, there was a large vehicle parked in front of the police station with a line of folks awaiting free chest X-rays. I made my approach, got my handlebars locked up, and the bike went down. I was so damn embarrassed, that I somehow found the strength to get the bike up, and I immediately rode away rather than face the line of people! Yes, turns need to be practiced. I was fairly new at the time, and received no training.

I have been meaning to order the DVD thats out there published by a former motor officer that teaches this subject and more.

I do think some bikes perhaps are better handlers at very slow speeds due to the way they develop power at lower RPM.

I had a local motorcop tell me that he personally did not think my Triumph was the best type of bike for making extremely tight quick turns .....that was his opinion. He was riding one of those Kawasaki monsters I have done one 2 mile an hour dump on mine just practicing in front of my house. No one saw it and no one got hurt other than my pride.

A motor cop not only has to pass a very stringent training course but indeed they get plenty of real world practice.

I haven't tried it yet with my Bonny, but I could do real good locked turns on my big VTX 1800 which was the bike I used when I took the MSF advanced course some years back.

The best thing I can say is to rev it more. You don't have the off-idle grunt of a Harley in a Speedmaster, so it can be a little 'jerky' if you just let out the clutch at 1000rpm. Try it at 2-2500rpm and it should be easier.

Cool. I would like to really become a master of slow speed manueverability on my bike. I have gotten a lot better just from riding day in and day out. But to be 110% confident in those busy parking lots where there is often not a lot of room to get around requires at times a very high level of proficiency and confidence ...or one must revert to duck walking. At this point I duck walk if I have any doubts. Better to duck walk and remain upright than try the deed and go down.

Does look cool to see someone execute a dramatically slow...almost excruciatingly slow tight U-turn in a very small space ..straighten her up and accelerate away.

I'm a short timer in the saddle but you got me thinking about the process.

I get through tight, low speed turns by getting the butt out of the saddle and to the outside of the bike/turn. The weight of the bike is pulling toward the center, and sitting regularly in the seat pushes all your weight toward center too, making you want to drop your inside foot.

Just before you start the turn and have slowed to just above a walk, move a cheek to the outside of the seat and sit up straight, crank your head all the way over your shoulder in the direction you want to head, crank the bars around smooth and let it go. As you come around to the direction you'd like to go, it is easier to get your bars straightened out because you can pull the bike toward you with your weight on the outside peg and extra leverage on the outside grip.

As the bike straightens out (direction and back to vertical) you get your butt back in center, keep your eyes up to where you're going and you're right back in the saddle, twist and go.

I can do a full lock left turn in the open parking lot after a few tries, and in public I go through each step mentally BEFORE I start, but I don't go looking for opportunities to try too often.

I can't get the hang of the really tight right turns. I think turning left I'm getting on the throttle a tiny bit as I get the bike upright, while going hard right I'm concentrating on NOT twisting the throttle open while the bike is cranked into the turn.

Definitely requires mastery of the technique and some reglar practice.....good clutch and throttle work with the friction point ......feathering the clutch with just the right power inputs and some rear braking ....

One of the things I carried over to my riding from flying is to try to avoid full lock maneuvers as much as possible. The reason is that if you need a little more, it isn't there.

I agree with lctrc on "Ride Like A Pro", it's a lot of watch me; however I found it prety informative for the money and have done the practice with two different Kaws and it helps. I'm new to the TBA but so far it seems very very easy to handle.

I really clamp down on the rear brake and add in throttle to keep her moving. Don't touch the front brake, it upsets the balance. Practice doing figure 8's with the rear brake holding you back. If you start to go down, ease up a bit on the brake to regain momentum. Read this in a bike mag and it works pretty well with practice.

We are taught over the pond to always look where we want to go, drag that rear brake, keep throttle and clutch constant and never full lock. Keeping the throttle constant with clutch constant makes the engine like a gyroscope which stabilises the bike.Oh and shift your a** over the saddle to the opposite of the turn

Re-read your post and I have the same problem. Get Ride Like A Pro IV. It teaches two things for that. One they call the friction zone, and it goes against everything I ever learned about a clutch, but it works. The other is head and eys up, looking at where you want to be. I find when I do that right, I intuitively add throttle and release clutch and everything straightens out before I even realize what happened.

A cheat that makes a big difference is to reach down and adjust the idle a bit higher if you know you have to do a bit of slow speed manuvers. Just push the rpm up to 1200 and the bike will be a lot more stable and less likely to stall against the rear brake application. You can leave the throttle alone and just use the clutch one less thing to think about until you have it aced.

Thanks for the insight, always nervous on those slow speed turns and parking, esp with an audiance, real or imagined.....

I second the Ride Like a Pro video. I had the same problem when I got the bike as you do. I cut tennis balls in half for markers and practice at the local high school parking lot doing the slow cone weave. It made all the difference. Practice, practice, practice. Anyone can ride fast, slow riding is much harder.

One thing to remember is never hit the front brake with the bars turned-that will put you over to that side and you've have to put a foot down.

one of the best pieces of advice is even thought youare going slow is to look ahead if you are practicing a u turn focus on the finish point not the turn you will imediately start turning tighter with more stability.

I prefer to always look where I want the bike to end up. If I am making a U turn, I look over my shoulder. I do this quite often and it works best for me. Other riders should do what works best for them.

I have the Ride Like a Pro video and it's good. Our local cops have a small course behind the station that they ride everyday before they hit the street.

I started practicing slow riding when I figured out that any time I have dropped my bike-or almost dropped it, I was going slow.

I heard that when the LEO do their public drills, they change their cluctch settings so they slip very easy in the friction zone. Probably pretty hard on clutchs.

I think a big thing here is the riding position, at first I was not used to the forward controls as all my bikes prior were enduros, or old triumphs and you rode sitting straight up with your feet below you. It is just a more natural and secure feeling and better balance in that position (my opinion) and easier to do the figure eights or manuevering slowly around obstacles. It just takes some practice and seat time and you will get more proficient but I personally don't think that riding in this position will ever be as precise as per say the T100. Any thoughts??????

I agree, the board/peg position on our bikes make it very difficult to shift any weight to the pegs/board for those of us with shorter inseams. The boards seem to have improved the situation.

One of the tricks that helps with very slow riding is to slip the clutch a lot and keep the engine speed up. The spinning mass in the engine acts as a gyroscope, helping to keep the bike upright.

Changing the fork springs to progressives makes a huge difference imo.

I'm saving my pennies for better suspension. I'm fairly comfortable with the cone weaves but it has taken practice and I've killed several tennis balls but I see limitations in the suspension.

I hadn't thought of that, but I think you're right. I got on my first BSA many years ago and never thought about turns - they just happened. I was thinking it was weight (the bike) or age (me) or fork rake. It's probably all of the above along with the forward controls.

Clutch control and weight shifting are the keys to slow speed turns. You have three gyros on you bike. Front wheel, rear wheel and crankshaft. If the wheels are turning so slow that gryoscopic action isn't in play you can rev the engine to increase gyro effect and help keep the bike balanced. Clutch control and the fiction zone help achieve this. Weigh shift is also critical. By shifting your weight to the outside of the turn you can help keep the bike upright.

I read all the posts on this subject and was surprised that nobody touched on the key here (rake and trail)of the forks.
Trials motorcycle have their forks clos to vertical for a reason. You get over the centre of the turning circle by standing on the pegs, leaning forward and hip lock your self to the outside of the turn. Now look at the average racing MC or the Thruxton 23 degrees fork rake. Speedmaster 28 degree--America 33.2 degree. These are round number as I didn't want to go back and look them up. This is why the B America has a tendency to fall into a slow turn. Yeah it was built for style and stability on a straight line highway. So knowing this is a bit of a problem we have to be a little more aware of the Americas shortcoming here.
Geoff

Please except my correction Al, the Speedmaster is the same. BTW how do you think extreme rake of a chopper handles in slow turns--yeah there all show. But what are they telling you--they will have a tendency to flop inward in a slow turn. The principal stands though Re: the geometry affect from rake and trail. But my quick examples used were off. The Bonneville and the Bonne T100 are 28degree the Thruxton is 27 and change. Speedmaster and America 33.3 degrees. Many sport/racing bikes are as little as 23 degrees. My old Brit bikes you never gave it a thought in a slow lock turn with feet up and you could spot a green rider by the duck walk. I have ridden for many-many years but darn near dropped my America because of the rake affect that surprised me. Now I more on guard.
Geoff

Gotcha, that makes sense. I felt a little foolish now being aware of that difference between a BA and a Speedy. My honor is back intact... <g>.

My perspective having just aquired an 02 TBA is that these bikes have heavy front ends which tend to do what they want at very slow speeds.

My bike has more rake then the TBA and a 21" front wheel and it feels much "lighter" in the slow turns.

Good advice about looking where you want to go and about using the clutch and throttle to provide the right power.