 Re: Harley-Davidson York,Pa plant shut down
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7
Monkey Butt
|
Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7 |
Quote:
Unions are completely and totally useless in the US in this day and age. Back when they first started there was a reason for them ...but not now.
Unions are BS and STRIKES are only good for bowlers. I heard part of the reason the Hardly workers are striking is cause they will also have to start contributing to their health care program with monies from their own pocket. All I can say to that is welcome to the club now quit your whining and go build those hardlies. A vested future RUB awaits your labor on HIS piece of unique Americana.
I disagree that unions are usless. There are companies run by managers so out of touch with reality that a properly run and motivated union would be of great help to everyone, including the stockholders. Unfortunately, too many union leaders are even more out of touch with reality, and are motivated by things other than the best interest of their members. Stupid management & stupid unions aren't going to fix anything.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
|
|
|
Re: Harley-Davidson York,Pa plant shut down
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 937
3/4 Throttle
|
|
3/4 Throttle
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 937 |
Quote:
Well having spent 14 years in a labor union. I do to some degree understand the "mind set". Alot of people would say that the unions have out lived there usefulness. But in some cases it's a the only way to get a fair shake from a greeedy employer. Before you come down too hard on the union
take a look at CEO pay and share holder profits. It's the guys in the trenches that made them rich.
Yep, gotta agree with that...look at freakin' Wally Mart. Now there's a story about getting rich on the backs of working folks...slave labour, both on this continent and abroad.
Quote:
On the otehr hand unions do protect dead beats and slackers. And can be pretty unreasonable about crap like hey I cant sweep the floor thats a maintanence job.And it's been my experience that the union leadership is more concerned aboutkeeping there own cushy jobs and looking after their buddys than anything else (kinda like congressmen).
Gotta agree with that, too...when I lived in the Yukon, they closed a tungsten mine down because of excessive costs...now the excessive costs weren't due to benefits and wages...it was lowly stuff like outright theft of materials...guys stealing gloves, tools, gas/oil, and anything that wasn't nailed down...and productivity issues, sick time off due to hangovers, etc...so everybody lost a real good job with good wages and good benefits because of stupidity.
BTW, hope you don't mind...I've borrowed you signature line for my "proverb of the day" here at work...people are pissin' themselves...(some just look at me kind of funny?
'02 Blk/Slvr BA, Jireh fishtails, Freak, no AI, 160/42, 18T
She is the Beauty, I am the Beast.
|
|
|
Re: Harley-Davidson York,Pa plant shut down
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
|
|
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Well said yourself, Daniel(hill8586). ONCE AGAIN, there is pleanty of blame on BOTH SIDES of this issue to go around. When the instances and practices of CEOs of large corporations who are insulated and as you stated, "have no sense of ownership" and the consesequences of steering their respective companys into bankruptcy ceases to be a multi-million dollar "golden parachute" and a warm shakeshake upon their departure(many instances abound, people), well, THEN I'll stop worrying so much about the general plight of the average workers out there and his small little pension plan that's going the way of the dodo as we speak. On the flip-side, YES there are a few lazy "no account" union workers out there, who should have never been hired by MANAGEMENT in the first place(what are you guys CLUELESS or somethin'?...I can spot one of 'em a freakin' mile away...NOBODY interviews THAT good without giving themselves away, you idiots), BUT for every one of THOSE union idiots there are a SCORE of hard working GOOD employees. I think what americans sometime forget is that that are entirely too many people in all facets of enterprise in this country who's sense of ambition far exceed their intelligence. (but enough about our current Administration) 
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
|
|
|
Re: Harley-Davidson York,Pa plant shut down
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,734
Loquacious
|
|
OP
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,734 |
With this strike/lockout being about health care benefits, I think that's what the focus should be on. Here we have one of the most successful companies in this country over the last 15 years and the union has voted to strike. This isn't the auto industry and it's recent failings with record losses trying to get the UAW to shoulder some of the burden. This is Harley-Davidson, a model company.
This country needs to do something about the way it goes about health care. More and more people are without insurance every year as costs just keep on rising, most of the time well above the rate of inflation. And it's only going to worse...much worse, as aging baby boomers suck the system dry as they age.
We're seeing more and more companies not even offering health care benefits, most of them small employers. And even with those that do have health care plans, workers often aren't able to afford the premiums. It needs to change, NOW!
|
|
|
Re: Harley-Davidson York,Pa plant shut down
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7
Monkey Butt
|
|
Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7 |
Quote:
ladisy - well said ! As a business owner myself, I believe it is a responsibility to care for ones employees. This responsibility is to ensure the company is financially strong, forward thinking (looking for pot holes in the road) and thusly provide oportunity for financial growth. The problem is that, in my experience, Unions and most employees do not have an appreciation for the financial risk that business owners take in starting/running a business. If things take a turn for the worse ,financially, the employee does not recieve bonuses or raises and at worst is looking for another job while the business owner usually looses it all. The problem with most CEO's is they have no sense of ownership thusly no consequences for their actions...gee ! kind of like politicians. I think the way to help solve this problem long term is better economic education to our kids but there you again have to many administrators making money and not stepping foot in a class room...Basically, the entitlement mentality is breaking us !
I used to work for FedEx. They are mostly non-union. When they started, just 30 some years ago, the company was run by those who founded it. Those who were there had a sense of excitement and a lot of pride in what they were doing. There was a great spirit of camaraderie, almost a feeling of family. They had a generous profit sharing plan that included almost everyone and a nimble management team that responded quickly to problems and opportunities. Everyone took great pride in the company and it earned a reputation as a great place to work. Over time the pioneers retired, took their profits and moved on, or simply moved out of day to day management. They were replaced with “Professional†managers with MBA’s and no real connection to the early days of the company. Over time the profit sharing was scaled back until now only the very top management gets it. The social events were reduced or eliminated and the paternalistic attitude of concern for employees welfare has largely been replaced with a much more cold hearted attitude. Even the commitment to customers has been replaced by a very short term profit mentality. Priorities change almost every day. Delivery commitments take a back seat to payroll considerations. In short, the bean counters have completely taken over the company. It seems as if FedEx has devolved into an experiment to see how long it takes a brilliant business idea to be overcome by incompetent management. This is not an isolated event. Long time employees of WalMart say the same thing, It’s just not the same since Sam died and management was turned over to the “professionals.†When both of these companies were started they didn’t need a union. The owners/managers of the companies worked WITH the employees and took care of them. Now both companies see their people as assets to be managed rather than people to be cared about.
Would unions help in either case? Probably not. Unless they recognize the necessity of profits, the repressive nature of strict work rules and the need to concentrate on their members needs rather than a social or political cause, they would probably make things even worse.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
|
|
|
Re: Harley-Davidson York,Pa plant shut down
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
|
|
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Excellent point Derek.
Just a few short months ago, the CEOs of GM, Ford and Chrysler went hat-in-hand to the halls of Congress, and their MAJOR CONCERN was that they had to supply their workers with said health insurance, while the countries such and Japan, Germany and EVEN CHINA now(for chrissake) have government healthcare supplied by their respective countries. And so, funds that COULD be used for R&D and future models that could COMPETE against their overseas competitors go towards their employees' healthcare INSTEAD.
Remember THIS people?!(it was in ALL the newpapers)
But this being a nation of "rugged individualists", I suppose the healthcare of others will never become a priority.(and besides....we're too busy building nations elsewhere at the moment to worry about THIS "little" problem here at home, it appears)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
|
|
|
Re: Harley-Davidson York,Pa plant shut down
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,527
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,527 |
Our company left SOCAL 16 years ago after being acquired by Dover Corp.....and most of the Socal employees (Union) had to hit the streets of LA in search of other work. Some did come to Tucson and their wages were frozen for some time and those of us hired here in Tucson started at poor wages. All of that (I dont do windows crapola) that union workers typically flaunt went away with the Southern Az wind and heat. Wage scales improved quickly though.
Unions represent the death of improvement and innovation in business today. Look at the auto industry in this country. They are getting their tails handed to them while they pay people exorbitant wages to scrub the floors. I honestly believe that unions as a viable entity are on the way out if not halfway out the door to obscurity.
Local Raytheon union (machinists) went on strike locally last fall for three months before getting a contract that was nowhere close to what they wanted. In fact the impact to Raytheon missile systems locally was small if any in terms of slowing production. In fact Raytheons fourth quarter earnings skyrocketed.
Those people stayed out nearly three months getting whatever the union provided and I know that what they won in the end was not worth the effort and loss of personal revenue they endured.
We have no union here at our company but we have fair and fully equitable hiring practices and wage scales are reviewed yearly and compared to other companies locally. Benefits are good and good workers can stay as long as they want.
Equal opportunity and treatment laws make the need for unions simply silly.
After all if you are really treated poorly and denied equal opportunity, or subjected to unfair hiring practices, or feel that you are unfairly terminated all you need to do is be aware of what you can do to document these things and seek legal recompense
Trust me supervisors and managers in this day and age must follow a fine line and be careful not to cross it when it comes to disciplining a worker or terminating someone for cause. All the T's have to be crossed and the paper documentation all in order..counseling , efforts to help, et al.
"Proud to be an Infidel" ... "100% pure American Jingoist"
|
|
|
Re: Harley-Davidson York,Pa plant shut down
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
|
|
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Larry, THAT was the most intelligent, insightful and circumspect post you've ever offered us around here. I LOVE IT when people start lookin' at ALL SIDES of an issue. Cheers, Dwight (okay...what did you do with the "What's good for GM, is good for America" corporate apologist Larry I've come to know and "love", ANYWAY?  
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
|
|
|
Re: Harley-Davidson York,Pa plant shut down
|
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 948
3/4 Throttle
|
|
3/4 Throttle
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 948 |
The pay of the CEO should be tied to the lowest worker. It makes me sick to see what these people get when they get fired or leave. That's plain obscene wanting to cut the wages of new workers-I bet the same does not go for the hire of new managers.
I'm not big on unions but this is exactly the reason they exist.
Redbike7
2006 America
No amount of skill can overcome gross stupidity. Ask me how I know...never mind, I forgot...
|
|
|
Re: Harley-Davidson York,Pa plant shut down
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7
Monkey Butt
|
|
Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7 |
I'm not sure handing 1/7th of the economy over to the control of politicians and bureaucrats is a good thing. Unless you're a power hungry politician that is. Everyone likes to whine about the insurance companies but do bureaucrats have a better track record? Everyone likes to complain about the drug companies profits but does anyone think new and revolutionary drug treatments come from government? Being without health insurance is NOT the same as being without health care. Hospitals are required to take in emergency patients. Additionally, lots of people make that choice, I don't think I should be forced to pay for other peoples health insurance if they choose to have cable TV, a new car, high speed internet and a vacation instead.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
|
|
|
Re: Harley-Davidson York,Pa plant shut down
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
|
|
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Kev! Is that YOU TOO!(there seems to be an awful lot of POD PEOPLE around here today) Well said, Sir!  Ya know, I startin' to think that if Larry, Kevin, Derek and I went to York PA, the production of Sportsters(along with that cool new XR1200 flattrack lookin' machine of their's, which H/D's management decided in their "infinite wisedom" would hit the shores of EUROPE first, where of course flattrack racing was soooo popular ) would be up and running in NO TIME!) Cheers, Dwight (Who'd a thunk it???....we actually AGREE upon something here, me thinks)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
|
|
|
Re: Harley-Davidson York,Pa plant shut down
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
|
|
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Quote:
Hospitals are required to take in emergency patients.
What was that that Bette Davis said in that 1950 movie...."Fasten your seat belts! It's going to be a bumpy ride"...AFTERALL it seems!
Yep Larry! They DO have to take uninsured patients. THAT'S WHY so many of our hospitals in this country are GOING BROKE!
Cheers,
Dwight
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
|
|
|
Re: Harley-Davidson York,Pa plant shut down
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7
Monkey Butt
|
|
Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7 |
I spent much of my life in the military. The leadership I saw there is light years ahead of what I've seen in the civilian economy. In the military there is a clear reason for its’ existence, the consequences for failure are immediate and catastrophic, success and failure effect everyone and are easily determined. Administrative demands, political correctness and politics tend to be forgotten when bullets are flying. At the unit level priorities are starkly clear and the bean counters take a back seat. Even in peacetime, the knowledge that you may, with little or no warning, be thrust into battle requires leaders to plan for that eventuality and commit their resources toward that end.
Far too many companies forget what they are there to do and how to do it. When political correctness, or short term goals that have no effect on long term achievement, are given the highest priority the organization suffers. Short term thinking often conflicts with long term success. There are two really good examples.
Lee Iacocca was a Ford executive before he went to Chrysler. He is often credited with setting up the financing packages that allowed the Big 3 auto companies to greatly increase their prices while keeping monthly payments relatively low. GMAC. Ford Motor Credit, Chrysler Credit, etc allowed them to avoid labor strife by rolling over for every union demand and then just include it in the price of the car. Today everyone at the Big 3 are paying for the decisions made then.
Kaiser Shipyards were forbidden to offer higher wages to their prospective employees during WWII. Instead they offered free healthcare since it did not fall under the federal wage rules in effect during WWII. It proved popular and effective in recruiting employees, especially since the cost could just be rolled into the government contracts. Prior to this time medicine was almost completely private, costs were controlled by peoples ability to pay and charity took care of those who could not. In the years following this, costs increasingly lost any accountability to the market and true charities became business entities. Now we have a system that has limited control of costs and lots of people think having it run by the same kind of bureaucrats who run the DMV and the Post Office will be an improvement.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
|
|
|
Re: Harley-Davidson York,Pa plant shut down
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,466 Likes: 3
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,466 Likes: 3 |
Quote:
Being without health insurance is NOT the same as being without health care. Hospitals are required to take in emergency patients. Additionally, lots of people make that choice, I don't think I should be forced to pay for other peoples health insurance if they choose to have cable TV, a new car, high speed internet and a vacation instead.
Starting pay here is about $36K. A couple dozen CRAFT employees regularly pull in over 100K (with overtime). The company pays the greater share of health benefits. You'd be amazed at the number of full-time 'ees who decline health care coverage because they can get it free at the local hospital - which they drive to in their Lexus or Benz. They get no sympathy from me!
|
|
|
Re: Harley-Davidson York,Pa plant shut down
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
|
|
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Ya know Larry, the Military has never been known to question the senselessness AND the short-term thinking of certain "deciders".(no matter the elected officials lack of intelligence OR experience...OR lack of historical perspective for THAT matter) As YOU know, that ISN'T their job and MAYBE the reason why poor Gen. Casey is sittin' on the "hot seat" as we speak(that poor devil is "taking the fall" for..ahem... "others'" "bright" decision making in the recent past, I'D SAY!) And WHY maybe Air Force tanker toilet seats cost 500 bucks a pop!!!(SOMEBODY'S rackin' in the dough somewhere, and it sure isn't the union worker OR that poor un-unionized soul workin' at WALMART!) And regarding the U.S.Postal Service...at least THEY deliver our letters almost ALWAYS in a timely manner, for only what...37cents nowdays???(with only the occasional worker "going postal") Yeah! the Military is a "model" of efficiency ALRIGHT!!! But DON'T get me wrong. We DO need 'em! But I think what we need EVEN MORE is, as you stated, LONGER TERM REAL WORLD THINKING in ALL of America's endevours, in both the public AND private sectors.(oh...and an EDUCATED electorate which costs money too, ya know...seems to me a lot of the money that coporations AND unions give to candidates so they can insult our intelligence with those moronic TV ads come every election, COULD go a long way towards THAT "little" problem, wouldn't ya say?) Cheers, Dwight (BTW...thanks for your service. I MEAN that)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
|
|
|
Re: Harley-Davidson York,Pa plant shut down
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7
Monkey Butt
|
|
Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7 |
Quote:
Ya know Larry, the Military has never been known to question the senselessness AND the short-term thinking of certain "deciders".(no matter the elected officials lack of intelligence OR experience...OR lack of historical perspective for THAT matter)
I assume you are not suggesting that the miltary decide which orders they will obey and ignore ones they don't like.
Quote:
As YOU know, that ISN'T their job and MAYBE the reason why poor Gen. Casey is sittin' on the "hot seat" as we speak(that poor devil is "taking the fall" for..ahem... "others'" "bright" decision making in the recent past, I'D SAY!)
Actually General Casey is there responding to a bunch of armchair generals who love to grandstand before the press while taking ZERO responsibility for their actions.
Quote:
And WHY maybe Air Force tanker toilet seats cost 500 bucks a pop!!!(SOMEBODY'S rackin' in the dough somewhere, and it sure isn't the union worker OR that poor un-unionized soul workin' at WALMART!)
The plane with the $600 toilet seat was bought for a P-3 Orion, a plane I flew in the reserves. The reason it costs so much was that, due to the restrictions placed by Congress required it to be custom made within the acquisition process. They were not allowed to just make one. It had to be milspeced, tested, and fully documented. The Congress required it, not the Navy.
Quote:
And regarding the U.S.Postal Service...at least THEY deliver our letters almost ALWAYS in a timely manner, for only what...37cents nowdays???(with only the occasional worker "going postal")
It would be a lot less if they weren't using the profits from first class mail to subsidize the services where they do not have a government enforced monopoly.
Quote:
Yeah! the Military is a "model" of efficiency ALRIGHT!!!
See above example
Quote:
But DON'T get me wrong. We DO need 'em! But I think what we need EVEN MORE is, as you stated, LONGER TERM REAL WORLD THINKING in ALL of America's endevours, in both the public AND private sectors.(oh...and an EDUCATED electorate which costs money too, ya know...seems to me a lot of the money that coporations AND unions give to candidates so they can insult our intelligence with those moronic TV ads come every election, COULD go a long way towards THAT "little" problem, wouldn't ya say?)
Cheers,
Dwight
(BTW...thanks for your service. I MEAN that)
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
|
|
|
Re: Harley-Davidson York,Pa plant shut down
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
|
|
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
One final reply Larry...
No...I'm not suggesting that the military should pick and choose their assignments.
I AM suggesting that the Commander-In-Chief at least HAS MODIUM INTELLIGENCE!(and I AIN'T talkin' the CIA here, buddy)
(I just LOVE sayin' "I TOLD YOU SO" some three+ years after I was called "unpatriotic", and few other "choice names" by some around here just before YOU KNOW WHAT!!!)
Cheers,
Dwight
(it's SUCH a burden always being "ahead of the curve"[aka...RIGHT], ya know!)
Last edited by Dwight; 02/02/2007 5:19 PM.
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
|
|
|
Re: Harley-Davidson York,Pa plant shut down
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,836 Likes: 5
Learned Hand
|
|
Learned Hand
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,836 Likes: 5 |
There have been several well made points and more than a few excellent observations and opinions. I’ve successfully avoided the soap box recently, but the anti-union undertones of my Triumph brethren in this thread have forced me to climb back on.
To those who find unions worthless:
Let me first say that I am a management employee of a major corporation – lowly management – but management, just the same. I am the offspring of both union and non-union labor and just two generations removed from what was essentially immigrant slave labor. My grandparents raised chickens and sold eggs to subsidize the income my grandfather earned in a 3 foot coal seam to by groceries in a company store, which charged outrageous prices and excepted only ‘mine script (bogus money). As a boy, my dad witnessed Coal and Iron Police taking the eggs from my grandmother and breaking them so she couldn’t benefit by earning legal US currency to off-set the company script the workers were paid. The generation preceding me spent many a week or month on picket lines without income or benefits. In my life I have been a union member and a union officer, having held both local and international positions. I am now a mid-level supervisor. A job I’m sure would have been far from the grasps of a Italian-American, Catholic in previous generations. That’s my background.
Here’s my opinion. If it were not for unions, unionized labor, and those that sacrificed jobs, wages and even lives, it would be unlikely that many of us would receive the compensation we now do, nor, toil in conditions that keep us safe and healthy – REGARDLESS of whether we are currently union or non-union, management or blue collar.
There was a time not so long ago that unless one was directly linked to those in control, either by blood, social affiliations, or religious sects he or she could expect to earn their daily bread doing the hardest, most unsafe work imaginable, for wages that were meager at best. They had no security. Many lived in company housing – housing that was rented for unreasonable amounts and which was lost in the event one ‘spoke out’ against existing conditions.
Whether we are among those that belong to a union, or regardless of what a union can or cannot do for us today – We have all reaped from the efforts of those who were unionized and fought the gallant fight that brought us fair wages, job security, advancement based on both seniority and qualification, health care, pensions, etc.
If you think for one moment that unions aren’t important and worth preserving, look closely at the parallels between the weakening of major unions and the current state of ‘give-back’ mentality effecting the current work force and the golden parachutes and multi-million dollar bonus structures for today’s corporate CEOs.
You may be happy today and you may never ‘belong’ to a labor organization. But your good fortune is the by-product of those who did. You are also destined to lose whatever is lost as unions weaken and disappear. You are all free to think and comment as you will, but do it for your own benefit. Remember that this just opinion, but it is opinion from one who has witnessed and lived life on both sides.
I’ve said all I need to and won’t revisit this thread again. Peace out, my brothers, however you feel.
2004 Triumph Speedmaster (J Lo) 2006 Yamaha Stratoliner (Adele)
|
|
|
Re: Harley-Davidson York,Pa plant shut down
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,335
Learned Hand
|
|
Learned Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,335 |
I don't have any of the answers in regards to health care problems out there, but one statistic from the early 1990's (when certain people where looking into universal health care) has stuck with me. At that time, of all the people in the US that had health care 25% was provided by the government (SS, Medicare, Mititary, VA etc) and the other 75% by private insurers. The cost for the 25% was about 3 times more than the cost for the other 75%.
So, I am not real keen on universal health care being provided from big brother. I don't really want to pay almost 50% more in taxes, like all the other countries that have universal health care do. I just don't think the company I work for will give me a big pay raise to help offset the tax increase.
I do feel for the HD workers. My brother works for Goodyear and they were on strike for almost 3 months in 2006. It cost him dearly, and if it wasn't for several family members giving him money to help pay the bills he would have lost almost everything. It will take him more than several years to make up for what he lost.
Tom
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin, US author, diplomat, inventor, physicist, politician, & printer (1706 - 1790)
|
|
|
Re: Harley-Davidson York,Pa plant shut down
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
|
|
Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821 |
Wow, I wasn't here yesterday and look what happens,a thread on unions. Now I think I've made it clear in the past where I stand on this and there's really no need repeating what Barry just so eloquently said.
So just a few comments/questions:
For those who think unions were good but have outlived their usefulness; Has human nature changed? Do you really think that those who export jobs to countries where they can get virtual slave labor would not enslave you if they could? While things have changed and many companies do care about their employees, some still need the force of law to ensure fair treatment.
For those who think unions are communist; All unions of the AFL/CIO will expel any member who professes an affiliation with the Communist party. We like our signatory companies to make lots of money. That way, they stay in business and our jobs with good pay and benefits stay too.
For those who think unions should stay out of politics; The existing labor laws that many quote as the reason unions are no longer needed are the result of unions being involved in politics. Generally when someone wants to disenfranchise any group from our political process, it's because that group usually supports candidates that the person opposes. So if you want to take one special interest group out, take them all out. Of course that would turn our country over to the elitists.
To those who think the unions exist to protect deadbeats; Some smaller ones may do this, but I've seen it done far more in the non-union world with nepotism, favoritism and sycophantism than in the union workplace. I will admit that my own experience is in the construction industry where deadbeats are weeded out pretty quickly. Our workforce doesn't have any room for someone who won't carry his load. As a job Steward it's my job to represent the workers to management, and more than once I've told them to "send him back to the hall".
And another thing; Our signatory employers like to do business with us. When a job comes up, they just make a phone call saying how many of what trade they need and highly skilled and qualified workers are there that day. Union workers are paid substantially more, but save the companies money, and they know it. The highly skilled union workers consistently bring jobs in ahead of schedule and under budget ensuring bonuses for the contractor. The non-union construction companies seem to have the opposite result .
Another note about the rates paid to assembly line workers; This includes the amount paid to their pension plans and health care plans.
And finally, for those who blame the unions for the downfall of the U.S. Automakers, read again what Dwight wrote.
I bought a brand new made in the U.S.A. by UAW workers four wheel drive pickup three months ago.
A Toyota Tacoma
web page
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
|
|
|
Re: Harley-Davidson York,Pa plant shut down
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
|
|
Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821 |
Quote:
At that time, of all the people in the US that had health care 25% was provided by the government (SS, Medicare, Mititary, VA etc) and the other 75% by private insurers. The cost for the 25% was about 3 times more than the cost for the other 75%.
One problem with that statistic is that it doesn't factor in the 25% of Americans with no coverage. That is one of the forces that drives the cost of health care up.
Think about it, the majority of people in this country (without health care benefits) are just one group of metastasizing cells away from financial ruin.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
|
|
|
Re: Harley-Davidson York,Pa plant shut down
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,179
Learned Hand
|
|
Learned Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,179 |
intr
metastasized, metastasizing
1. Said of a disease, especially a cancerous tumour: to spread to another part of the body.
Thanks Bill! Lifes wasted if you don't learn one new thing everyday.
Regards,
Tom
|
|
|
Re: Harley-Davidson York,Pa plant shut down
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7
Monkey Butt
|
|
Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7 |
Quote:
Think about it, the majority of people in this country (without health care benefits) are just one group of metastasizing cells away from financial ruin.
Therefore we should use the coercive force of the government to extort money from their neighbors to cover them.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
|
|
|
Re: Harley-Davidson York,Pa plant shut down
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 320
Adjunct
|
|
Adjunct
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 320 |
Wow! This thread has bee super interesting to follow as it morphed through unions to health care to cheating the system. My fellow enthusiasts: Hats off, you are a very special group with many intelligent views to offer.
BUT! This started off with unions and I was reminded of the Union Leader who was in Vegas for a Convention. Feeling the urge, he set out for a House of Ill Repute.
The gorgeous ladies were lined up and he was told it would be $500. Being a union man, he asked what the split was and was told 80% for the house and 20% for the lady.
"Obviously this isn't a Union House," he said. The Madam agreed that it wasn't and he stomped off in search of a Union House.
Well, he did find one and asked the price, which was $500.
"What's the split?" The answer was 80% for the lady and 20% for the house as this was a Union House.
"Well, that's more like it," and reached for a gorgeous blond nearby. "Here's the money, I'll take her."
The madam then pointed to a 60 something year old standing next to her walker and said "Sorry, she's next up...seniority, you know."
"I live the life I love and I love the life I live."
|
|
|
Re: Harley-Davidson York,Pa plant shut down
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
|
|
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
|
|
|
Re: Harley-Davidson York,Pa plant shut down
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
|
|
Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821 |
Quote:
Quote:
Think about it, the majority of people in this country (without health care benefits) are just one group of metastasizing cells away from financial ruin.
Therefore we should use the coercive force of the government to extort money from their neighbors to cover them.
OH LOOKIE!!!! 
Your pony learned a new trick!!!
Oh sorry, same trick, just a different angle.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
|
|
|
Re: Harley-Davidson York,Pa plant shut down
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 18,825
"Lighten up, Francis."
|
|
"Lighten up, Francis."
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 18,825 |
And there you go, ruining it for everybody. 
|
|
|
Re: Harley-Davidson York,Pa plant shut down
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7
Monkey Butt
|
|
Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7 |
|
|
|
Re: Harley-Davidson York,Pa plant shut down
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
|
|
Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821 |
Quote:
Ad Hominem attacks sure are a lot easier than defending your position.
.
I defer to your authority and experience .
The position speaks for itself. You will be assimilated .
The unfettered free market approach has resulted in the current health care fiasco. It's time to throw it out.
Offer an alternative.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
|
|
|
Re: Harley-Davidson York,Pa plant shut down
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
|
|
Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821 |
Quote:
And there you go, ruining it for everybody.
Yeah, I think it's time.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
|
|
|
Re: Harley-Davidson York,Pa plant shut down
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7
Monkey Butt
|
|
Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7 |
Quote:
The unfettered free market approach has resulted in the current health care fiasco. It's time to throw it out.
Offer an alternative.
The healthcare industry has not had anything close to an unfettered free market since at least the early 1960's when Medicare was introduced. Every few years Congress "fixes" healthcare and makes it worse than before. The HMO's everyone likes to deplore were invented by Congress. Medicare, Medicaid, coverage requirements and restrictions get added on by both the Federal and state governments every year. Actually allowing free market forces back into the healthcare market would be a good way to go but is bitterly opposed by many in Congress because actually fixing the system is not on their agenda. They would prefer to aggrandize their power by taking over the system.
True cafeteria style healthcare plans where I can choose my coverage’s and deductibles and full tax deductibility of my premiums would be a good place to start. Currently it is illegal to set up pools of people just to buy healthcare insurance. That is why most insurance is through employers. Let insurers fight for our healthcare business just like they do for auto, home and life business. Massive tort reform to reduce costs would help but is opposed by the same politicians who fight using market forces to reduce costs. There is no perfect system. Given the choice, lots of people will bet on staying healthy and spend their money elsewhere. There will always be some who are not well served by any system but I believe maximizing freedom and choices will give us a better system than turning it over to politicians and bureaucrats. Nationalized healthcare systems ration care and stifle innovation. Revolutionary drugs, medical procedures and technology are not developed in government controlled healthcare systems.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
|
|
|
Re: Harley-Davidson York,Pa plant shut down
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
|
|
Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821 |
Very good points Larry. I actually agree with you on many of them.
By the "unfettered free market", I was referring to the insurance lobby (you may disagree with this too) I apologize for the lack of clarity.
The very fact that it is illegal for groups of people to join together for the purpose of buying insurance is evidence of the insurance lobby's power.
The problem with tort reform is that it could allow incompetent medical practitioners and or facilities to continue. There are cases of gross malpractice where lives are destroyed and limiting compensation is inappropriate at best. Another part of tort reform that is often promoted is stopping lawyers from working on contingency. This would prevent victims of wrongdoing or negligence from having legal representation. (Yeah, I know, with nationalized health care, this would probably happen too).
As a mortgage broker you may be aware of the high rate of mortgage foreclosures and bankruptcies that occur due to astronomical medical bills.
While the changes you mentioned may make yours and my premiums go down, they do nothing to address the large number of citizens of this country who have no or, at best, minimal coverage. Many people do not have the advantages that most of us do, they work minimum wage jobs with no benefits and try to house and feed themselves on what they earn. There's nothing left over for basic medical care, so they wait until something becomes serious and go to an emergency room where they have to be treated regardless of ability to pay. The ER facility doesn't want to lose money so they pass on the cost to those who can pay.
Quote:
There is no perfect system.
We agree on that!!
Quote:
There will always be some who are not well served by any system
So sorry. I don't find that acceptable.
It's interesting to note, Larry, that the system you propose would also require legislative interference.
(And I already know how you'll rationalize that )
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
|
|
|
|
|
