 Helmet laws
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Can some one point me to where i could get a list of US States that do not have mandatory helmet laws? I know in Ct.
"The Consttitution State" and Hew Hampshire "Live free or Die" You still have a choise.
Due to some developements in my place of employment (company bought out by one of the big boys). My job may go the way of the dinosaurs shortly. Wife and I decided if that happens we are going to sell and move.
Also Canadian laws..because if "Madam Hillary" gets elected I'm leaveing the country.
The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams
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 Re: Helmet laws
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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A word to the wise is not necessary. It is the stupid ones who need the advice.
Pat
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Re: Helmet laws
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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Benny
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Re: Helmet laws
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I noticed there are only 4 states without any helmet laws at all. Iowa, Illinois, Colorado and New Hampshire. I like the fact that some states only have helmet laws for minors which I think is a good thing. IMHO, people should decide if they want to wear a helmet. I don't like laws that protect people from themselves.
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Re: Helmet laws
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Should be Riding
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It's too bad there are a bunch of people who ruin it for the rest of us! Speed limits, seat belt laws, etc, would all be needless if people didn't F themselves up and then blame it on no rules! Like the lady who burned herself on hot coffee in the car. Now EVERY coffee container says "caution, hot". No kidding!
Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
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Re: Helmet laws
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Loquacious
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Any law designed to protect me from myself SUCKS.
The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams
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Re: Helmet laws
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I agree with you, but watch out. On another motorcycle forum I mentioned that I thought that helmet laws sucked. I thought they were going to ban me from the site. I had never been called a idiot in so many different ways! 
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 Re: Helmet laws
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Your link for helmet laws is in error ofr Florida. Here is another link for current motorcycle helmet laws. Tom
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin, US author, diplomat, inventor, physicist, politician, & printer (1706 - 1790)
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 Re: Helmet laws
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Learned Hand
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I also heard that Florida will be issuing a different color license plate for all riders 21 years old and younger. Thus making it easier for the police to identify helmet law violations and write more tickets.
Tom
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin, US author, diplomat, inventor, physicist, politician, & printer (1706 - 1790)
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Re: Helmet laws
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Quote:
I noticed there are only 4 states without any helmet laws at all. Iowa, Illinois, Colorado and New Hampshire. I like the fact that some states only have helmet laws for minors which I think is a good thing. IMHO, people should decide if they want to wear a helmet. I don't like laws that protect people from themselves.
Once you realize that you belong to the government and they are just trying to care for you it all makes sense. We are all too stupid to make decisions for ourselves and need smarter people to make them for us. Smoking, seatbelts and helmets are issues that we are simply not capable of dealing with.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Helmet laws
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Loquacious
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I notice that some states exempt riders from wearing a lid if they range from around 18 or older and have either proof of medical insurance or proof of taking the MSF training course...
I wonder ..do LEO in those states spend much time pulling adult riders over just to see if they have this proof on their person?
"Proud to be an Infidel" ... "100% pure American Jingoist"
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Re: Helmet laws
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Once you realize that you belong to the government and they are just trying to care for you it all makes sense. We are all too stupid to make decisions for ourselves and need smarter people to make them for us. Smoking, seatbelts and helmets are issues that we are simply not capable of dealing with.
Larry you may be joking here (at least I hope you are).
But I do now somone who actually believes in what you
say here. Kinda pathetic really, but he has come out with statments pretty much saying that the "Folks in da gubment are smarter than us, so we should just do like they say, and not complain all da time"
The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams
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Re: Helmet laws
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Doesn't everyone have an identification bar code tattoo under their scrotum?
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Re: Helmet laws
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Loquacious
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not everyone has scrotums.
The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams
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Re: Helmet laws
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Quote:
not everyone has scrotums.
I was trying to work something in there, but I drew a blank.
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Re: Helmet laws
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Old Hand
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Old Hand
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Quote:
I noticed there are only 4 states without any helmet laws at all. Iowa, Illinois, Colorado and New Hampshire. I like the fact that some states only have helmet laws for minors which I think is a good thing. IMHO, people should decide if they want to wear a helmet. I don't like laws that protect people from themselves.
One of the problems with legeslators trying to make motorcycling or driving foolproof is that nature is constantly breeding better fools.
Let's hope there's intelligent life somewhere in space 'cause it's buggar all down here. -- Monte Python
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Re: Helmet laws
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Adjunct
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People SHOULD be able to make up their own minds as to helmet use. Within that is the strong implication that it's that person's DECISION and they should be left alone with that decision.
Helmet use is a personal choice and should be respected.
SteveB
"I live the life I love and I love the life I live."
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Re: Helmet laws
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Quote:
not everyone has scrotums.
LOL. Aint that the friggin truth. Seems we have more and more eunuchs runnin around.
"Proud to be an Infidel" ... "100% pure American Jingoist"
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Re: Helmet laws
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Loquacious
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KY laws are kinda messed up. The passenger MUST weat a helmet but they don't enforce it until they stop you for something else.
we should do this every weekend!
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Re: Helmet laws
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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You have no choice in the UK, you have to wear it, bit of a s@d in the summer, but I support it after smashing up badly in the 70s and splitting one in half. I have a Lazer with a flip front and you can even get a fine for having the front up while riding 
Ray(UK)
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Re: Helmet laws
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Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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Quote:
I have a Lazer with a flip front and you can even get a fine for having the front up while riding
How does that work? As far as I know, you do not have to have eye protection!
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Re: Helmet laws
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Old Hand
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Old Hand
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Quote:
People SHOULD be able to make up their own minds as to helmet use. Within that is the strong implication that it's that person's DECISION and they should be left alone with that decision.
Helmet use is a personal choice and should be respected.
SteveB
The whole idea is to get people to become increasingly dependent on the government to make decisions for them. Then, when they say, "We are going to put a 2 way viewscreen in every room of your home for your own protection", there will be little opposition.
Let's hope there's intelligent life somewhere in space 'cause it's buggar all down here. -- Monte Python
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Re: Helmet laws
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Quote:
Quote:
I have a Lazer with a flip front and you can even get a fine for having the front up while riding
How does that work? As far as I know, you do not have to have eye protection!
Apparemtly the helmet is safety tested with the front closed and should not be used with it open
Ray(UK)
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Re: Helmet laws
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In CT. we don't have to wear a helmet on a bike but have to wear a seatbelt in a car. I have to question the logic when going through a police checkpoint looking for seatbelts while on my bike. In a steel cage I need a seatbelt, on two wheels no seatbelt(obviously) and no helmet. BTW I believe it should be my choise(seatbelt and helmet) though I don't dispute the safety advantages of both.
Yes Benny you shamed me into visiting you down here.
some times the light's all shining on me
other times I can barely see
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Re: Helmet laws
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Monkey Butt
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I notice more and more riders wearing buckets in states where they don' require it. Safety is catching on.
Now where did I put that helmet, saw it a few months ago.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Helmet laws
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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Good to see ya
Benny
Black & Silver '02
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Not enough miles ridden
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Re: Helmet laws
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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Even if it is not so much that safety is catching on, it is nice to see people making a choice and not necesarily going lidless cause they think it's cool!
Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
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Re: Helmet laws
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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What site was that Leonard?
"Catching a yellow jacket in your shirt at seventy miles per hour can double your vocabulary" Author unknown
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Re: Helmet laws
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It was a Yamaha Venture Touring site, The Venturers I believe it was. 
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Re: Helmet laws
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yep even starting to see the hardly boys in Helmetless Ct starting to wear skull buckets, guess coolness changes with the times.
The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams
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Re: Helmet laws
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Loquacious
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I've been ticketed for speeding (truck), not wearing a seatbelt (truck) and not wearing eye protection (but wearing the helmet) on a GL1200 with its billboard sized windshield. I was clearly guilty, but of the 3 tickets, the speeding ticket was the least expensive fine.
So... endangering the lives of others by speeding down the highway carries less of a penalty than endangering myself by not wearing the seatbelt or eye protection. Go figure.
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Re: Helmet laws
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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The times they are a changin!
Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
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Re: Helmet laws
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that is where I stand, I can back up laws pertaining to actions that affect the rest of the population but I think they cross the line with laws that only affect my personal safety like helmets and seatbelts.
some times the light's all shining on me
other times I can barely see
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Re: Helmet laws
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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They start with the humanitarian impulse of caring for you if you get injured but that costs money so they must quickly move to the socialist method of having someone else pay for their generosity. Once they have assumed the power to take money from others to care for you it’s only natural they will get the totalitarian impulse to control your life so as to keep the costs down. If you expect politicians and bureaucrats to act as surrogate parents and take care of your needs you shouldn’t be too surprised when they also act as surrogate parents to control your life.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Helmet laws
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Why is it that those who want to control our lives ( helmet laws, seatbelts, smoking, transfats, etc ) and love use high tax rates to facilitate their ends, seem to have accumulated their wealth already and arent concerned about paying high taxes ( taxes hit those who make more, no those who have it already ).
Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and will never be.----Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Helmet laws
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Quote:
Why is it that those who want to control our lives ( helmet laws, seatbelts, smoking, transfats, etc ) and love use high tax rates to facilitate their ends, seem to have accumulated their wealth already and arent concerned about paying high taxes ( taxes hit those who make more, no those who have it already ).
The worst of them no longer pay any taxes due to accounting tricks and tax shelters that are not available to the majority of us. There are lots of examples but my post would get deleted if I went any further with this 
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Helmet laws
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smoking effects those around us unlike helmets or seatbelts Frank
(Former)05 BA tbike pipes, ai removed, Freak, mikuni hsr 42's, 904, ported/polished head, 1mm oversized valves
NOW-2010 silver and black tbird
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Re: Helmet laws
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Everyone should have the right to not wear a helmet if they so choose as long as they sign a waiver that allows their state to refuse them "ward of the state" status should they end up a vegetable due to head injury and have no means of paying for their medical care. If riders want to be "FREE" and ride helmet-less then they should expect taxpayers to be "FREE" from the financial burden of caring for them when they end up as artichokes (IMHO  ).
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
-Nietzsche
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Re: Helmet laws
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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I'd rather pay NY state tax dollars for "Artichoke" care than Ms. Clintons salary or housing murderers on Rikers Island (Death penalty rescinded in NY - 2004). Luckily I don't live in NY.
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Re: Helmet laws
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Quote:
I'd rather pay NY state tax dollars
No need to. You can donate here:
http://www.bianys.org/
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Re: Helmet laws
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Complete Newb
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Complete Newb
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Regarding Helmet Laws:
I have been a registered nurse now for 8 years. Of those 8 years I have worked mostly in various intesive care units. This includes neurosurgical units. I wish everyone could see firsthand what a head injury patient looks like. Trust me, you would wear you friggin' helmet every time you went out. You would also see how terribly families suffer when their loved one was just too cool to wear a helmet.
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Re: Helmet laws
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Quote:
Regarding Helmet Laws:
I have been a registered nurse now for 8 years. Of those 8 years I have worked mostly in various intesive care units. This includes neurosurgical units. I wish everyone could see firsthand what a head injury patient looks like. Trust me, you would wear you friggin' helmet every time you went out. You would also see how terribly families suffer when their loved one was just too cool to wear a helmet.
Agreed, but it should still be up to the rider. Using the same logic our legislators could outlaw bikes altogether.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Helmet laws
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Quote:
smoking effects those around us unlike helmets or seatbelts
The studies on secondhand smoke are seriously flawed. But it is very popular to go after smokers anyway. Most people just accept that the smoke is dangerous to others just because they don't like it. The actual evidence is very thin and almost completely anecdotal. Similar to the arguments over loud pipes.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Helmet laws
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Quote:
The actual evidence is very thin and almost completely anecdotal.
I wasn't aware of that. What specific studies are you referring to? I'd like to read them.
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
-Nietzsche
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Re: Helmet laws
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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I don't think the smoking thing is a great comparison... But it is certainly one of those things that tons of studies have been done on, and as we all know studies are inherently flawed in that they only use a sample of the population. Trust me, if you have asthma, you don't need a study to tell you second hand smoke is bad... Not to mention the smell! Yuck.
Benny
Black & Silver '02
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Not enough miles ridden
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Re: Helmet laws
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Quote:
I don't think the smoking thing is a great comparison... But it is certainly one of those things that tons of studies have been done on, and as we all know studies are inherently flawed in that they only use a sample of the population. Trust me, if you have asthma, you don't need a study to tell you second hand smoke is bad... Not to mention the smell! Yuck.
The smell, the stigma and the political incorrectness of tobacco make it a very easy target. The Surgeon General recently put out a fatwa against second hand smoke that depends on the same studies that have been faulted previously for their lack of scientific rigor. Like global warming, the secondhand smoke jihad is not held to the same standards most areas of investigation must meet. And, also like global warming, anyone questioning the validity of the anti smoking crowds arguments is accused of the basest of motives while they portray themselves as saintly paragons of public virtue. I’m not saying secondhand smoke is good for you, or that there are no negative effects. But the studies conducted as of the middle of last year either did not prove causation of the negative effects they cited or were seriously flawed from a statistical viewpoint. So sayeth several statisticians I have spoken to and also a statistics professional journal they cited. I am not a statistician, a researcher, a cigarette smoker and actually have no dog in this fight. I am, however, a skeptic and deeply suspicious of anyone who wants to modify my, or anyone else’s behavior for our own good.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Helmet laws
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Quote:
a statistics professional journal they cited.
Which one? I am begrudgingly obliged to read some of the primary stats literature for my job, and I'd really be interested in reading the paper you mention.
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
-Nietzsche
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Re: Helmet laws
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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When I see them I'll ask them. They told me at the time but I've long since spaced it. I remember it had to do with being considerably less rigorous than usually required to make a causality claim. Here is a link one of the guys steered me to. He works for a health insurance company so he keeps a VERY low profile on this issue 
http://www.davehitt.com/facts/index.html
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Helmet laws
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i am notmeaning just health wise, i for one cannot stand a smoke cloud around be, especially if i am walking behind someone smoking and more so in a restaurant
Frank
(Former)05 BA tbike pipes, ai removed, Freak, mikuni hsr 42's, 904, ported/polished head, 1mm oversized valves
NOW-2010 silver and black tbird
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Re: Helmet laws
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Quote:
Here is a link one of the guys steered me to.
Pretty odd that your source, the professional statistician, referred you to a smoker's rights blog authored by some guy named Dave. Now I'm really interested to read that journal article he told you about!
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
-Nietzsche
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Re: Helmet laws
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If you expose one's lungs to smoke, whether burning metal, wood, petroleum, coal, tobacco(from either end of a cigarette),etc. for an extended amount of time CAN harm your lungs.Not all smokers get lung disease and not all with lung disease were smokers. You can find a study with stats to back up either side of any issue. Personally I applaud any law that limits my exposure to second hand smoke simply because it gives me a headache, bothers my eyes, ruins my appetite, and makes my clothes smell bad. It can be argued that second hand smoke doesn't kill people but I think a large percentage of our society would agree that it does adversley affect us. what happened to Re:helmet laws
some times the light's all shining on me
other times I can barely see
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Re: Helmet laws
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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what happened to Re:helmet laws
It got Re:Directed.
The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams
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Re: Helmet laws
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OK, back on track--I wonder why more people don't get pulled over for wearing those plastic novelty helmets. You can spot one a mile away...Or maybe they do?...I don't know anyone who wears them so I wouldn't know. Anyone have any experiences/stories?
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
-Nietzsche
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Re: Helmet laws
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some times the light's all shining on me
other times I can barely see
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Re: Helmet laws
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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I left a message on his voicemail. He works at Blue Cross where he does research of some kind. Risk analysis of some kind I think. Last time I saw him was at a cigar smoker last fall. We discussed second hand smoke and statistics over stogies and beer while watching scantily clad young ladies. The next day he emailed me that link.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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over stogies and beer while watching scantily clad young ladies.
That sounds good! Wish there were some good places like that around here--the best ever btw i've come across have to be in Canada. The stats info in that blog is true but he puts a heck of a spin on things. That's always the problem with issues like this. The science is usually sound, but once advocates, journalists, activists, politicians, lobbyists etc. get a hold of the results they spin the heck out of them. To get thru the layers of BS one needs to read the primary scientific literature but the problem is that it's difficult to read w/o some background in the field. And even then, if it's not in your specific discipline it could be about as enjoyable as root canal to wade thru.
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
-Nietzsche
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Re: Helmet laws
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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Statistics aren't so much the problem as the conclusions drawn from them
Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
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Re: Helmet laws
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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I'm still waiting for my statistician to get back to me. My exposure to the science of statistics was a long time ago back in grad school. I took two classes and did well in both but haven't really used it much since. The main thing I learned was to be very suspicious of statistics, especially when the user has an ax to grind. The same goes for computer models and simulations. "Researchers" cherrypick data and build their own assumptions into their work. That's why having a professional statistian look at the methodology of a report often shows that it is propaganda rather than science. As for the party, it was a private party of some 200, mostly Shriners with invited guests.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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"Researchers" cherrypick data and build their own assumptions into their work. That's why having a professional statistian look at the methodology of a report often shows that it is propaganda rather than science.
Undoubtedly some do (cherrypick), but that's what the peer review process is in place to prevent, and yes, some researchers do jump the fence and turn in to advocates but that is the exception rather than the rule (unfortunately they get the press and the public considers them "scientists" when they're not). Remember that statisticians are "researchers" too and also live in a "publish or perish" world. Their objectivity is just as suspect (not to mention that they have the mathematical vocabulary to be truly esoteric and obscure). The research community is far from perfect, but I still think the crux of the problem lies with the insidious politicos who would fault the results of an experiment for using a 90% confidence interval rather than a 95% one (the main complaint of the infamous 1993 report), and then reach into their arsenal of logical fallacies/rhetorical devices and effectively declare to the world, "See! They're lying to you! Secondhand smoke's not bad for you at all!"
Oh, yeah, and how about those helmet laws, huh?
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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If there is an accepted standard that is routinely enforced in an area of study (i.e. statistics) then relaxing that standard just because the subject is politically sensitive ((i.e.: second hand smoke) is an act of political activism not scientific objectivity. To decide whether or not it is proper to do so, just reverse the characters. Imagine the uproar if RJ Reynolds used a relaxed standard of evidence to prove smoking was less dangerous than publicly thought. Far too often the ends justify the means if the ends are politically correct. The anti-smoking crowd would not have problems with their credibility if they used commonly accepted methodology. The same with certain other popular causes. I don't think anyone has declared second hand smoke safe, but they have said that according to commonly accepted statistical methods the claims that it is dangerous have not yet been proven to the extent some activists have claimed. I think the various claims about helmet use need to be subjected to the same rigorous standards required in other fields. (See, I got helmets back in there )
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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I still think the biggest problem is the conclusions drawn. Just because someone proves something isn't bad, doesn't mean it IS good. See? Also, I think uncofrtunately a lot of times the real scientists/statisticians aren't the ones turning the good study into the conclusions. Someone hires someone else to compile everything, then they use it however they see fit.
Benny
Black & Silver '02
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Big Bore
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Walt, Larry, I am really enjoying this debate. Perhaps the Legislation forum is not so 'esoteric' after all?
"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity" - Robert Heinlein
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Re: Helmet laws
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Quote:
Walt, Larry, I am really enjoying this debate. Perhaps the Legislation forum is not so 'esoteric' after all?
There is usually so little action on this part of the forum that it can go days with nothing. Now you have us posting several times a day.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Also, I think uncofrtunately a lot of times the real scientists/statisticians aren't the ones turning the good study into the conclusions. Someone hires someone else to compile everything, then they use it however they see fit.
A great example is the latest UN Global Warming report. The conclusions were reported before the data was released. Although I have not read the report I've have heard that the data does not support the conclusions. A prime example of exactly what you said.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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And they seem to be more civil here too I like it. It's ok if nothing happens for a few days here, at least when it does happen it is for a good reason.
Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
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Re: Helmet laws
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Quote:
Walt, Larry, I am really enjoying this debate. Perhaps the Legislation forum is not so 'esoteric' after all?
There is usually so little action on this part of the forum that it can go days with nothing. Now you have us posting several times a day.
I guess most people surf the forum thru the main forum page by topic. i rarely do that and instead click on "show all posts from the last 24 hrs", then I just keep scrolling down and read the stuff that's new, or at least new to me.
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
-Nietzsche
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OK , here I go again!
In standard statistical hypothesis testing, to be considered "statistically significant" results need to fall within either a 95% or a 90% confidence interval (CI). What that means is that the likelihood of achieving the same results merely by chance is either 5% (100% -95%) or 10% (100% - 90%), respectively. By convention those are the only CI's used and whichever one is selected is always specified. A paper would never appear in a reputable journal if it wasn't. Both standards are very conservative. No reputable scientist would seriously fault a study for using 90% rather than 95%, especially since it largely depends on sample size. A former professor of mine explained all this to us using baseball data. When comparing runs scored vs. number of wins for one of the leagues using a common statistical test there was found to be no relationship at all at either of the CI's. Only when data from the other league was added increasing the sample size was a significant relationship found but only at the lesser 90% standard. Let's face it. Anyone can tell you that the more runs you score the better chance you have of winning the game. This is elementary, right? It proves that teams who score more runs tend to win more games. Nope, it doesn't. At least not to the same folks who exploit the naivety of the public by discrediting perfectly good science in order to push their agenda. If you think that folks aren't really that ignorant about science and easy to mislead just remember the OJ Simpson trial when Johnny Cochran convinced a jury that DNA evidence isn't really evidence at all! So they let the friggin' guy go free! What's ironic is that people are condemned to death on waaaaay less evidence than something as irrefutable as DNA. Another irony is that scientists, the people best equipped to defend their discipline from those who would pervert it for their own gains, remain largely silent because the minute they speak up they're accused of bias and pushing their own agenda! Nobody wants to damage their reputation so its dammed if they do, dammed if they don't. Imagine if lobbyists and activists of all kinds, journalists, pundits, Political Action Committee members, environmentalists, industry groups, advocates, lawyers, judges, and of course, politicians had some sort of specified standard to live up to, something even remotely resembling the statistical rigor that science demands of itself? By the way, do helmet laws save lives, or does secondhand smoke cause lung cancer, or does fossil fuel combustion warm the planet? Is their any scientific evidence of any of this? It doesn't matter because an industry rep, or lobbyist with a sexy assistant, a box of cuban cigars, and Super Bowl tickets has much more influence on the legislative process than something as capricious and fickle as science.
Walt
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
-Nietzsche
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Doesn't everyone have an identification bar code tattoo under their scrotum?
Worlds Worst Job. Scrotum ID scanner! 
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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Another irony is that scientists, the people best equipped to defend their discipline from those who would pervert it for their own gains, remain largely silent because the minute they speak up they're accused of bias and pushing their own agenda!
See scientists are smart
Well said Walt with lots of good points. Funny how it seems like just about every college stats class is basically a professor proving how stats are BS! Same at my school.
Benny
Black & Silver '02
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I wouldn't go so far as to call them BS, but as far as being able to lie with them, you sure can. Not so much when they're used by professionals but when someone throws out very misleading little statistical tidbits. For instance, "Child victims of gun violence have increased by x% over the past decade." What they're not telling you is that the definition of children had changed from those under 16 to those under 18. Of course there's more "child" victims now, 16-18 year olds comprise most of the nation's gang members! So as not to be considered getting political, here's another example from the other side of the political fence, "This administration has saved x% more wetlands than the previous administration." Sure, that's true, especially when you change the definition of what's a wetland a month before you made this speech! The truth is under the old definition your administration has allowed the destruction of more wetlands than any other administration is history! Both of these statements, BTW were made in State of the Union addresses by recent former presidents! Lies, Dammed Lies, Statistics, Politicians!!!
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
-Nietzsche
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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I hear ya. That is exactly why I hate traffic death statistics. The number of motorists goes up each year too, ya know?
Benny
Black & Silver '02
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Re: Helmet laws
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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I hear ya. That is exactly why I hate traffic death statistics. The number of motorists goes up each year too, ya know?
The number of miles driven needs to be taken into account too. Different topic but same subject (Statistics). A book by John Lott called "More Guns Less Crime." He is a statistician who set out to prove that gun control saves lives. When he got beyond the hype and looked at the real numbers he found the opposite. That despite the accepted conventional wisdom that more people carrying guns would cause shootings to increase, they actually went down and reduced all violent crime as well. Extensively footnoted and, as you can imagine, an NRA favorite. Unlike many politically motivated “researchers†he was honest enough to change his theory to match the facts rather than the other way around.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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John Lott is an economist who conducted his infamous gun control metadata analysis while employed at the American Enterprise Institute, a privately funded conservative think tank. He is not an independent, mainstream scientist and his employers, as strong Second Amendment supporters have never funded research intended to support gun control. He's never published his gun study in a peer-reviewed journal but has authored several general audience books about the subject. He has, however, made his data available and others have duplicated his methods albeit with conflicting results. Very understandable too! Data from the social science field are always very sloppy and easy to mislead with. They're gathered practically all from meta-analyses, nothing like relatively clean experimental data. He's a great example of a scientist who should have stuck to science, and not become an advocate. Once he left mainstream science to work for AEI, his reputation in the academic world plunged. He is however selling lots and lots of books.
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
-Nietzsche
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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John Lott is very unpopular with the gun control crowd and has earned their everlasting enmity for demonstrating that almost everything they say is false. Typically they say he is outrageous and claim that his results are biased. What I have yet to see however, is evidence that contradicts his work. His work is available online http://www.johnlott.org/ and he is happy to defend it using real numbers that can be verified. Below is one example of his work being published in a peer reviewed journal http://www.terry.uga.edu/~dmustard/ccw.pdf I saw him speak a few years ago. He has very little patience for anti-gunners who spout cant and dogma without facts and research to back them up. He reduced one very aggressive gun grabber almost to tears (much to my delight by the way). Because of his position on the issue he has been subjected to the most intense scrutiny and not everything has been without controversy. On the other hand, those on the other side of the issue report only the most carefully cherry picked statistics and are seldom, if ever, scrutinized in any meaningful way. Of course his reputation plunged among academics, after all he not only demonstrated that most of the lefts positions on gun control were wrong, he went to work at a CONSERVATIVE think tank for Gods sake. But which conservative university faculty should he have joined? After all, he had come up with data that supported the enemy! Compared to ANY statistics put out by the gun grabbing crowd John Lott’s work is a paragon of probity and accuracy. If they had an answer to him, other than attacking and slandering him, they would have published it by now. After all, his book came out nine years ago.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Compared to ANY statistics put out by the gun grabbing crowd John Lott’s work is a paragon of probity and accuracy.
I didn't mean to say that Lott never published his gun stats work in journals, only that the big study you mentioned that was the basis for his first book was not. I couldn't agree with you more in regards to the above quote, BTW so I'm going to have to play devil's advocate to some extent but I'll give it a try
Lott's work will always be suspect (unjustly or not) because he went over the fence and took a public political stance. Also, his work is funded by private money from a political organization. I don't understand how you can accuse independent, university funded researchers of being biased in regards to secondhand smoke (who use experimental data with controls and multiple treatments etc.)yet don't see any bias in social science data funded by a political group? Unless what we're really discussing are beliefs and if that's the case then data mean nothing.
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
-Nietzsche
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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I don’t think taking private money biases a researcher any more than taking public money. Those who fund university research are no more pure than those who fund private research. If someone takes money from the Sierra Club, AEI, The American Lung Association, RJ Reynolds, Planned Parenthood, the NRA or Handgun Control (or whatever they’re calling themselves now) I don’t care. As long as their work is fair and accurate. Universities, being what they are these days, lean very hard left and thus there is a lot of pressure to satisfy those who run the place and decide who gets funded and who gets tenure. There are numerous stories of researchers shunned by their colleagues because they doubted Al Gore’s version of climate change, the deleterious effects of second hand smoke or the efficacy of gun control. They’ve been picketed, denounced by the faculty senate, had paint thrown on them or denied tenure. Strangely enough, some of them have left to join the conservative think tanks because they are the only place that will welcome researchers who do not toe the PC party line. The worst examples currently are among climatologists and meteorologists where any questioning of the politically correct dogma will get a scientist written out of the profession. Scientists are being hounded because they dare to use the scientific method and actually test theories against observed facts. There are many examples, but I’m sure you know that. What it boils down to for me is that I think university, government and “Public Interest†research is likely to be at least as biased as that done by conservative think tanks. In fact, I think the greatly increased scrutiny of AEI, Club for Growth, Heritage and NRA studies often makes them superior since any error or oversight, any cute tricks with data or weasel words will be instantly pounced on while those on the other side often get a pass. Do you think, for a moment, that if John Lott had produced a report for Sarah Brady that supported confiscating every firearm in private hands that there would have been problems for him in academia? That any of his data or conclusions would have been questioned on campus?
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Utah only has them for Minors. Who here would wear one all the time if they didn't have too?
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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I would and do. But I do cause it's my choice. Just lucky it happens to jive with the laws too...
Benny
Black & Silver '02
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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Wear mine all the time.
Even when in Utah or Arizona where I don't have to. Even in July.
Ya see, it only has to save you once to be worth it.
And in my case, it has.
Not to mention the saved teeth, eyes etc.
But having said that. It still should be an individual choice.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Loquacious
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Well most of the time I wear one.Ct has no helmet laws for adults, But every now and then, depending on where I'm going I'll go bucketless, Yeah I know its stupid, but rideing without a helmet realy is such a different feel,
And if i ride any distance without the helmet, I actually have to force myself to put one on.Cant explain it guess i just dig bugs hitting me in the forhead.
The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams
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Jacket with armor, boots, gloves, and full face lid, everytime I fire it up for the street. Like Benny, my choice....my melon. I am real partial to my melon and keeping it in one piece.;)
Ezcue
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Iowa has no law requiring helmet use but I can count on the fingers of one hand how many times I've ridden without one in the last 20 years. Always long pants and over the ankle shoes, although I do ride with just an Aloha or T-shirt rather than a jacket sometimes when it is hot. Although, after seeing those pictures of the "Road Rash Girl" last year, I've taken to gearing up much more often. Since this is the only melon and set of skin I have I've decided to protect it a bit better.
On the other hand, as a libertarian leaning conservative, I don't think the state has the moral or constitutional authority to require helmet use. Like the ABATE guys say "Let those who ride decide." Just don't make me responsible for their decisions.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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On a related topic, our newly elected Democrat legislature voted to raise cigarette taxes by a dollar a pack and raise taxes on my cigars too. Our newly elected Democrat Governor is practically peeing himself in eagerness to sign the bill. I'll be buying my cigars over the internet and I hope the local Indian tribe starts selling smokes and the border county smokers go to other states to buy cigarettes. Greedy, busybody, nanny state b@stards!
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Well most of the time I wear one.Ct has no helmet laws for adults, But every now and then, depending on where I'm going I'll go bucketless, Yeah I know its stupid, but rideing without a helmet realy is such a different feel,
And if i ride any distance without the helmet, I actually have to force myself to put one on.Cant explain it guess i just dig bugs hitting me in the forhead.
I agree, Its hard too put one on. like you I force myself. Although I never wear shorts and usually wear good set of steel toe boots. Likely you'll see me with my leather but when its too ****** hot I tend to shed the clothing. Long rides its hard not to wear a full face, purely for the element factor.
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Adjunct
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Adjunct
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Quote:
some of them have left to join the conservative think tanks because they are the only place that will welcome researchers who do not toe the PC party line.
I think you lost me there. Comparing the nation's research universities to think tanks is comparing apples to oranges. The think tanks don't "do" any hard science. Their research is in public policy. They concern themselves with politics, not science. Why would geochemists, climatologists, or paleobiologists who research climate change work for a think tank? There are no labs there for them to work in. What's even more puzzling is why would anyone throw paint at them?
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
-Nietzsche
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Re: Helmet laws
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Loquacious
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OP
Loquacious
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Quote:
On a related topic, our newly elected Democrat legislature voted to raise cigarette taxes by a dollar a pack and raise taxes on my cigars too. Our newly elected Democrat Governor is practically peeing himself in eagerness to sign the bill. I'll be buying my cigars over the internet and I hope the local Indian tribe starts selling smokes and the border county smokers go to other states to buy cigarettes. Greedy, busybody, nanny state [Email]b@stards![/Email]
Be carful about this not too long ago Ct authorities sent huge tax bills to people they found out where buying smokes on line.
And before that the state cops practically laid siege to a small Indain tribe that was selling untaxed ciggerettes to non tribal memebers.
Yep those of you out there that swept in Democrats, without thinking what that was going to mean to you wallets, better get ready,,, bend over here come the liberals.
I just cant wait to see what our new congress does to us.
Last edited by oneijack; 03/15/2007 8:58 PM.
The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams
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Re: Helmet laws
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Quote:
Be careful about this not too long ago Ct authorities sent huge tax bills to people they found out where buying smokes on line.
Never one to avoid a good fight, I'd tell them to "KMA, let's go to court and make a circus out it." I'm pissed enough to do it right now.
Quote:
And before that the state cops practically laid siege to a small Indian tribe that was selling untaxed cigarettes to non tribal members.
What? and deny sustenance to the poor downtrodden Indians? They already get millions tax free from gambling. Who could deny them cigarette money too?
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Helmet laws
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not all the tribes have casinos, what the cops did was stop everycar going on or off the res.And basically harass the crap out of them. Not blaming the cops here. It was done on the Governors orders.
The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams
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Re: Helmet laws
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Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Quote:
not all the tribes have casinos, what the cops did was stop everycar going on or off the res.And basically harass the crap out of them. Not blaming the cops here. It was done on the Governors orders.
Some politicians think of all money as their own, they just allow you to keep some of it. On the other hand, if they keep getting elected the people have only themselves to blame.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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It was done on the Governors orders.
Funny how all the harassment stopped once the state got a cut of the gambling action, which, without a lot of research, seems pretty close to illegal if we're talking about a state levied tax upon a sovereign nation.  Then the state spin doctors had the b&lls to tell us "The money will go to education."
Mmm Hmmm - sure it will.
I can't see how that CT casino deal was any different than when organized crime does a shakedown. And to beat that, had organized crime done the extortion deal at the casino, they wouldn't demand a paper trail, reports, permits, and compliance audits like the state of CT surely must.
I had to laugh when I read that the CT revenuers rolled up to the NY Seneca reservation, and demanded the list of CT cigarette customers buying tax free cigarettes. The Senecas told them to go pound sand. I love it. Then a few of our elected geniuses in Washington figured it would be a good idea to introduce a bill to demand by law that UPS & Fedex drivers collect cigarette taxes upon delivery. I kid you not.
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Government and organized crime have a lot in common. That's why the less you can have of either the better off you are. As a former FedEx driver I can tell you that making them collect taxes would be difficult. How do you know what's in the package? How much is the tax? What if they don't have the money? What if they are not home? What if the driver "forgets?"
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Helmet laws
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,877
Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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Quote:
Government and organized crime have a lot in common.
Except the criminals are usually more organized
Making drivers collect is just funny. Like you said how would they know what is in it? Isn't it somewhat illegal to know what is in it other than knowing what is NOT in it? I have to fill out condition reports to ship stuff sometimes for work, ya know "this does NOT contain XYZ". Plus, I know some mail men and FedEx guys, and I know some folks who order smokes from the web, A: I can't imagine these people caring or taking the time to collect, and B: I can't imagine the recipients even bothering to entertain the conversation
Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
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Re: Helmet laws
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I think the state missed the boat with the indain casinos,
Instead of trying to fight them on it, Should have tried to make a deal right from the start for "A piece of the action"
Maybe even offered to help out money wise for a part ownership, should have asked themselves "What would Gambino do?"
The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams
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Re: Helmet laws
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Too often the biggest difference between the Mob and the government is that the Mob doesn't have badges and doesn't pretend to be looking after anyone other than themselves. The Iowa nannystaters just increased the cigarette tax from 36 cents to $1.36. For our own good of course. All other tobacco taxes went up too. Just what we need, politicians and bureaucrats controlling our personal choices. When and where (if) does it stop? Once the premise is accepted that they know better then we do I wonder what the limit may be.
C. S. Lewis said it best:
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Helmet laws
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Loquacious
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Yep I'd rather be oppressed by Heathens than Puritans.
The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams
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Re: Helmet laws
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Re: Helmet laws
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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The second hand smoke thing weather it's bad for others or not it's very unpleasant for a nonsmoker.It can ruin a meal having to breathe that crap when you are eating. I also can't believe it's harmless. Nonsmokers don't inflict anything on the smoker but the smoker inflicts thier bad habbit on the nonsmoker. I am all for smoking bans in resturants I don't think it needs to be banned in bars as most people would expect it there and can choose not to go in and it is pretty much an adult only inviornment.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Helmet laws
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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But is it the job of bureaucrats and politicians to tell the owner of an establishment whether or not to allow smoking? If the owner decides to ban smoking, or anything else, that is his business because, well, it's his business. When the government does it it’s petty tyranny.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Helmet laws
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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Never thought of it that way, interesting POV.
Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
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Re: Helmet laws
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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Before our recent smoking ban in all bars that serve food except in the casinos (guess which big business was behind that one), there were many smoke free (voluntary) restaurants that never seemed to be lacking customers.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Helmet laws
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Posts: 2,555
Loquacious
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OP
Loquacious
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Quote:
Nonsmokers don't inflict anything on the smoker but the smoker inflicts thier bad habbit on the nonsmoker.
I have to dissagree here Dog, Non-smokers tend to inflict their selfrighteous opinons on smokers.
The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams
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Re: Helmet laws
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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No you misunderstand I am not for legilateing it just saying I see the reasoning. As far as selfrighteous opinions don't like it don't rear it or listen to it but it has done no physical hard while as the second hand smake may have. As a nonsmoker they could ban it in the whole country as far as I'm concerned same for drinking. But I don't think that is what should be. I like the idea of nonsmoking resuraunts. Having a smoking section in a resturaunt is like having a peeing section in a public pool and does about as much good.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Helmet laws
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Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
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Quote:
Having a smoking section in a resturaunt is like having a peeing section in a public pool and does about as much good.
The answer is obvious, don't go into pools with peeing sections.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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They already have entirely separate peeing pools, they're call "kiddie pools". If pee-ers want to pee in public pools, they should be restricted to those pools as the other patrons in the pool wouldn't mind.
Bob
2005 America, 904cc - sold. 2014 Trophy SE.
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Quote:
They already have entirely separate peeing pools, they're call "kiddie pools". If pee-ers want to pee in public pools, they should be restricted to those pools as the other patrons in the pool wouldn't mind.
On the other hand, if you knowingly enter a peeing pool, does it make sense to demand it become a non peeing pool just because you want to enter it?
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Loquacious
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The key phrase is "knowingly enter a peeing pool". That's why I think there should be separate pools for pee-ers. I wouldn't enter a kiddie pool and demand they stop peeing. I'm all for separate pools - not just peeing sections.
Bob
2005 America, 904cc - sold. 2014 Trophy SE.
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Re: Helmet laws *DELETED*
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Saddle Sore
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Saddle Sore
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More flags
More fun!
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Re: Helmet laws
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Cell phones is another one!! I believe unless it's some kind of emergency like maybe you kid or wife is gonna have a baby any sec. or something. Cell phones should be shut off at the door of a resturaunt or put on vibrate and if it does vibrate leave the area to answer.Wendy and I both personally do that.Common curtosy.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Helmet laws
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Quote:
Cell phones is another one!! I believe unless it's some kind of emergency like maybe you kid or wife is gonna have a baby any sec. or something. Cell phones should be shut off at the door of a resturaunt or put on vibrate and if it does vibrate leave the area to answer.Wendy and I both personally do that.Common cutosy.
On Easter Sunday one of the guys passing the communion trays had his cell phone go off during that part of the service. He turned bright red and dozens of people hurried to turn off their phones so it didn't happen to them
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Helmet laws
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Posts: 12,877
Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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My phone ran out of batteries in church sunday. I had it on silent, but it made a little jungle anyway! Luckily it was pretty quiet and only a couple people heard it.
There was also a little kid who went "YAY!" after every song, cause she knew it was time to applaud! SOOOO cute. Got a good chuckle from everyone.
Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
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Re: Helmet laws
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Loquacious
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OP
Loquacious
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My cell phone sleeps in the glove compartment of my truck most of time. I take it out at lunch time to check for messages. Then I check again before I start drive home.
When it's not in the glove box it sleeps in my panniers.
I wake it up if I stop some place.
The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams
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Re: Helmet laws
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Posts: 12,877
Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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Posts: 12,877 |
I got into the habbit of keeping mine on me when it was my only phone (no house phone) after college. Now, with my job, I need it on me all the time too, so it's a habbit. Plus, I am scared of forgetting it at my parents' house somewhere! I leave it in the house sometimes on weekends or whatever, but I feel weird without it!
Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
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Re: Helmet laws
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Posts: 23,248 Likes: 64 |
mine is with me all the time due to my towing co. but not when I am out in a public place where it's inappropriate.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Helmet laws
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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My cell phone is my primary business number. I literally make my living over my cell phone. I'll put it on vibrate but I almost never turn it off. In church, at a movie theater, a funeral, a nice restaurant for supper probably off, especially in the evening or on weekends. At lunch including most restaurants, shopping, barber shop, etc, especially during business hours that sucker is on. I try to be considerate. I don’t talk loudly, or usually very long, but I am not going to miss a deal that may net me thousands of dollars out of concern that someone may get their panties in a twist over it.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Helmet laws
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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Yeah I try not to be obnoxious, I figure that's a good rule of thumb. The overly loud foul mouthed stuff is just wrong tho! One time I was on the ferry to CT. Smallish cabin... There was one guy talking on SPEAKERPHONE (I HATE speakerphone) to his wife, and they were swearing to eachother, not AT eachother, but ya know using the language. Kids around.. who cares?! Same boat, there was another guy who was nice enough to step outside the door onto the deck, but the door was propped open, and he was facing the door and now yelling cause the wind noise was up. So it was louder in the cabin than it would have been had he just kept to himself in a corner...
Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
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Re: Helmet laws
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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I think any public eatery even as far down the scale a Bking or McDs it's just the rudest thing you can do is talk on the phone for any reason. I too need mine for business a call can range anywhere for $60 to $3,000 depending on what the deal is, I tow and there are times I get a vehicle that has to be removed from somewhere and I remove it. I then turn around and sell it for a couple grand. I still show enough class to leave the dining area to answer and talk on my cell.The ring would not have been audible , would have been on vibrate too.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Helmet laws
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Posts: 12,877
Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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I think as long as you are not talking louder than you would in a conversation, a quick answer is ok. Might be rude to whomever you are with at the time, but at least you are probably not disturbing the people around you anymore than you would by just talking.
Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
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Re: Helmet laws
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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agreed. I was more refering to those people who walk in either already talking on it or get a call shortly after and talk all the way through the meal and leave still talking.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Helmet laws
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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Oh yeah, there's definitely a time and a place. I have coworkers who use those bluetooth ear pieces. Leave them in ALL the time, so sometimes I don't know if they are talking to me or not! Nothing is that important... Keep the thing in your breast pocket and put it on when you get a call...
Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
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Re: Helmet laws
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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I agree. I hate those blue tooth things. It's a status symbol among the more ethnic members of the community here. Bling. They even sell fake bluetooth sets here.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Helmet laws
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Posts: 23,248 Likes: 64
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
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P.S. Before I get ripped on I didn't mean that as a rip on any group it simply is here.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Helmet laws
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Posts: 12,877
Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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Around here it's like the gadget freak nerd types. 15 things attached to the belt, etc. Reminds me of college way too much...
Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
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Re: Helmet laws
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Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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Posts: 6,821 |
Quote:
One time I was on the ferry to CT. Smallish cabin... There was one guy talking on SPEAKERPHONE (I HATE speakerphone) to his wife, and they were swearing to eachother, not AT eachother, but ya know using the language. Kids around.. who cares?!
Splash.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Helmet laws
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Posts: 12,877
Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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Hahaha true. It was dark out too And those old WWII boats sure do make a heckuva racket...
Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
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Re: Helmet laws
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7 |
Agreed, I'm always amazed at the people who think they need to YELL into their cell phones. With some of them you wonder why they don't just step outside, they're loud enough no phone is needed. As long as I am fairly quiet (Conversational tone) and relatively brief, what's the beef? Usually I find out what they want and promise to call back within the hour.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Helmet laws
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 9,223
Big Bore
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Big Bore
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 9,223 |
I believe I just thought of a temporary cure for these loud talking cell phone idiots.
Get YOUR phone out and get right up next to them (and I mean right up next to them) and start blathering LOUDLY into your phone. Ignore them if they give you 'the look'. If they move away, move with them. Eventually, they will stop and ask "Do you mind?"
Respond "Not at all, do you?" and continue your 'conversation'
I am going to try this.
"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity" - Robert Heinlein
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 Re: Helmet laws
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7 |
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Helmet laws
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,248 Likes: 64
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,248 Likes: 64 |
LOL Thats like going into a gift shop and demanding your gift!! LOL
Or get along side a big RV and point at the rear tire like something is wrong so they pull over and try to figure it out! LOL
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Helmet laws
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,012
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,012 |
Quote:
I believe I just thought of a temporary cure for these loud talking cell phone idiots.
Get YOUR phone out and get right up next to them (and I mean right up next to them) and start blathering LOUDLY into your phone. Ignore them if they give you 'the look'. If they move away, move with them. Eventually, they will stop and ask "Do you mind?"
Respond "Not at all, do you?" and continue your 'conversation'
I am going to try this.
yesterday, on one of my trains, a passenger was talking really loud on his cell phone. really loud.
i asked, in a very nice manner--twice, that he lower his voice. the third time i had to talk to the guy
i gave him three choices, "shutupshutitofforiamgoingtoyankthatthingoutofyourhand."
i'll give y'all one guess which option he chose.
allhailthefrenchpress
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Re: Helmet laws
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,248 Likes: 64
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,248 Likes: 64 |
Oh I hope it was yank! LOL
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Helmet laws
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,877
Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,877 |
Shari, are there any cell rules on trains? Or is it just simple jackassery?
Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
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Re: Helmet laws
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,012
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,012 |
Quote:
Shari, are there any cell rules on trains? Or is it just simple jackassery?
courtesy, or lack there of, which leads to the aforementioned jackassery.
allhailthefrenchpress
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Re: Helmet laws
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,463
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,463 |
Quote:
yesterday, on one of my trains, a passenger was talking really loud on his cell phone. really loud.
i asked, in a very nice manner--twice, that he lower his voice. the third time i had to talk to the guy
i gave him three choices, "shutupshutitofforiamgoingtoyankthatthingoutofyourhand."
i'll give y'all one guess which option he chose.
Love it! (Glad it's not just me that deals with these asreholes in this way... )
Gina
03 America - Pretty stock - except the TBS wheel...
06 America - missing, presumed in bits. With it's TBS wheel... 
09 America - It's very blue....
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Re: Helmet laws
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,877
Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,877 |
Gocha. So it's not like he was sitting under a no phones sign or something.. just being a douchebag
Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
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Re: Helmet laws
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,179
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,179 |
Portable cell phone jammer. Just don't get caught ($10k fine and a year in the pokey). Sometimes it's worth the risk.
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Re: Helmet laws
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,877
Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,877 |
Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
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Re: Helmet laws
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 8,639 Likes: 3
Old Hand
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Old Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 8,639 Likes: 3 |
I want one of those with about a 1/2 mile range to put on my bike!
Let's hope there's intelligent life somewhere in space 'cause it's buggar all down here. -- Monte Python
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Re: Helmet laws
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7 |
Quote:
I want one of those with about a 1/2 mile range to put on my bike!
But then they are mad and shaking their phone and cussing.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Helmet laws
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,877
Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,877 |
Good point! What's worse, someone talking on the phone? Or someone distracted cause their phone doesn't work and they keep trying to connect?
Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
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Re: Helmet laws
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 534
Adjunct
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Adjunct
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 534 |
helmet laws suck
we have them in europe yuk
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Re: Helmet laws
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1
Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1 |
It's a basic concept. Brain trauma is about $10K for every 20 minutes in the ER and the cagers don't like paying the bill. My solution is simple, just ink DNR on your chest, then ride sans helmet. Personally, my brother was med evac pillot til he burned out and he saw way too many brains on the road from the donor-cycle gang. I hate it but I've always worn a helmet for the past thirty-five years; haven't had to test it yet to see if it really works.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Helmet laws
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,248 Likes: 64
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,248 Likes: 64 |
I personally don't wear a helmet but to me it isn't really weather you do or don't but the idea you have the right to choose.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Helmet laws
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,540
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,540 |
Personally I wear one now. It was part of the pact I made with myself while bouncing off that tree at 60 with no helmet. I lived and now I wear the gear.
But I completely agree with the above statement ( what is going on this is the 4th time this weekend I have done this)
I like that people can make their own choice.
I happen to a be a native of the "live free or die state"
Live Free and Ride.
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Re: Helmet laws
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 147
Adjunct
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Adjunct
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 147 |
One comment about seatbelt laws-they are not only about the safety of the individual who makes the choice not to wear one-there are many serious injuries and deaths caused by an unbelted person flying around the inside of the vehicle and slamming into another person. For that reason, they make more sense than helmet laws
Keep your powder dry
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Re: Helmet laws
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 144
Adjunct
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Adjunct
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 144 |
How much more likely are you to die with no helmet?? Quite a lot id say, so what about the poor ****** in the car that kills you and then has to live with it. Put your helmet on and minimise the risk. 
Phil C
If you dont believe there's a price for this sweet paradise
Remind me to show you the scars...
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 Re: Helmet laws
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 14
Complete Newb
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Complete Newb
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 14 |
As a Paramedic in a 911 system and an ardent biker. Here's my 2 cents. I've seen the results of both sides of the helmet and seat belt debates first hand. As for seat belts; the vast majority of the fatalities in car wrecks that I have been on were not wearing belts. So annecdotaly I would say thay are a good idea. As for helmets; I have seen enough brains to convince me that I will allways wear one. Just remember that even a slow speed knock the the old nogginn can leave you wearing a diaper and drooling on yourself for years to come.  But with all that said. I still believe it should always be a personal choice and the Gov should stay the !@#$ out of my choice. 
If it ain't broke...You ain't hitting it hard enough!!
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Re: Helmet laws
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 948
3/4 Throttle
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3/4 Throttle
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 948 |
Texas requires a helmet UNLESS you have a certain amount of insurance. The problem is you might be pulled over to check and see if you have the insurance.
Redbike7
2006 America
No amount of skill can overcome gross stupidity. Ask me how I know...never mind, I forgot...
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Re: Helmet laws
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,971
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,971 |
Of the two unscheduled get offs I've had over the past 30 years, the helmets always took an ample scuff. What little hair I have left... 
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