 Brent's Replacement horn ???
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Has anyone used Brents 125db attention getter horn, I was wondering if it required a relay??
05 TBA Mulberry/Silver, Thunder Bike pipes, K&N single Filter, 132 main Jet's, Snorkles Removed
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Re: Brent's Replacement horn ???
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Joined: Jan 2005
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"Lighten up, Francis."
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"Lighten up, Francis."
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Re: Brent's Replacement horn ???
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Oil Expert
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Even if you don't HAVE to use a relay I still would. They're SO easy to fit why would you ignore a device whose only purpose is to safeguard your wiring?
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Re: Brent's Replacement horn ???
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Old Hand
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Old Hand
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Your horn switch will last longer if you use a relay.
Let's hope there's intelligent life somewhere in space 'cause it's buggar all down here. -- Monte Python
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Re: Brent's Replacement horn ???
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"Lighten up, Francis."
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"Lighten up, Francis."
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I'm not convinced. We're not talking about a starter circuit here.
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Re: Brent's Replacement horn ???
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Big Bore
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Big Bore
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Well, here's a question that could decide relay or not.
What's the current draw of the horn?
"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity" - Robert Heinlein
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Re: Brent's Replacement horn ???
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Quote:
Well, here's a question that could decide relay or not.
What's the current draw of the horn?
More importantly, how long do you expect to draw current, ie how long will you have the horn button depressed? Even if the current draw is close to the rated ampacity of the wiring, overheating will only occur if the current is drawn continuously for some period of time...short beeps, esp. intermittent beeps, will dramatically decrease the total power consumption.
FWIW, I've had this horn installed for a couple of years now without any evidence of problems due to excessive current draw.
'02 Blk/Slvr BA, Jireh fishtails, Freak, no AI, 160/42, 18T
She is the Beauty, I am the Beast.
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Re: Brent's Replacement horn ???
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Quote:
More importantly, how long do you expect to draw current, ie how long will you have the horn button depressed? Even if the current draw is close to the rated ampacity of the wiring, overheating will only occur if the current is drawn continuously for some period of time...short beeps, esp. intermittent beeps, will dramatically decrease the total power consumption.
Not exactly... running a device for a longer period will of course increase it's -total- current draw, but when any electric/electronic device is switched on it's current draw is greatest at the first moment of operation. That's why you get a small spark on the switch, and it's that very spark that'll weld the switch contacts together if you overload it.
Rather than "do I need a relay with this horn?" the question should be "Is there any reason NOT to use a relay with this horn?". Sure it may not NEED it... for that matter you don't NEED fuses either! Till something goes wrong the bike'll work fine without either, but for the sake of a $2 investment and installing one extra wire to the battery I'll take the relay any day.
Last edited by Sandmann; 02/01/2007 5:27 PM.
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Re: Brent's Replacement horn ???
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Quote:
Well, here's a question that could decide relay or not.
What's the current draw of the horn?
Brent doesn't list the brand and model, but assuming it's the 125db Fiamm Freeway Blaster it's 5A.
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Re: Brent's Replacement horn ???
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Adjunct
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I put Brent' horn on my bike a few weeks ago and only made the two connections to it. It had a ground wire in the kit also which I did not know what to do with. It works and has not fried yet, but should I revisit this installation again?? 
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Re: Brent's Replacement horn ???
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Quote:
Quote:
More importantly, how long do you expect to draw current, ie how long will you have the horn button depressed? Even if the current draw is close to the rated ampacity of the wiring, overheating will only occur if the current is drawn continuously for some period of time...short beeps, esp. intermittent beeps, will dramatically decrease the total power consumption.
Not exactly... running a device for a longer period will of course increase it's -total- current draw, but when any electric/electronic device is switched on it's current draw is greatest at the first moment of operation. That's why you get a small spark on the switch, and it's that very spark that'll weld the switch contacts together if you overload it.
Rather than "do I need a relay with this horn?" the question should be "Is there any reason NOT to use a relay with this horn?". Sure it may not NEED it... for that matter you don't NEED fuses either! Till something goes wrong the bike'll work fine without either, but for the sake of a $2 investment and installing one extra wire to the battery I'll take the relay any day.
'fraid not, Matt...running any device for a period of time won't change it's total current draw...time will determine the total energy used. If a circuit is designed to draw 5A of current, it will draw 5A of current until it's turned off, or until something goes wrong, ie shorted/open load or similar. Same with power...if this same 5 amps is delivered to a 100 ohm load, power dissipation will be 1000 Watts, and will be continuous. However, total energy consumed will be a function of power over time ie watts/hour.
A capacitive load will initially draw more current at turn on, an inductive load will draw less. Since a resistor is a phase linear device, current and voltage are both instantaneous...however, there are certain exceptions, and these are generally temperature and material based, ie a light bulb filaments resistance will dramatically increase with temperature (all metals have a positive temp. coefficient, that is dR/dt > 0) or so-called inrush current...and this is because the filament is tungsten, a metal.
Contact arcing generally occurs only with inductive loads, esp AC inductive loads, or with very high current DC applications.
My point in all this is that, as FJ said, this isn't a starter motor application, it's a horn! And a horn is used intermittently, unlike, say, high intensity driving lamps or something. I personally wouldn't spend any time worrying about installing a relay, or exceeding the ampacity of the wiring, etc. It's just a horn.
'02 Blk/Slvr BA, Jireh fishtails, Freak, no AI, 160/42, 18T
She is the Beauty, I am the Beast.
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Re: Brent's Replacement horn ???
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"Lighten up, Francis."
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"Lighten up, Francis."
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I'm sure glad someone with a brain backed me up because I've got nothing but my gut instincts and a little automotive experience. 
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Re: Brent's Replacement horn ???
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Well, my wife has upon occasion made some comment or other about half a brain...  it's funny how simple matters can sometimes become complex...if one likes to tinker and play, a $2 relay sure won't hurt anything...in the absence of necessity, I personally wouldn't...and didn't.
'02 Blk/Slvr BA, Jireh fishtails, Freak, no AI, 160/42, 18T
She is the Beauty, I am the Beast.
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Re: Brent's Replacement horn ???
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Big Bore
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Big Bore
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Quote:
Brent doesn't list the brand and model, but assuming it's the 125db Fiamm Freeway Blaster it's 5A.
FWIW, I've had the Fiamm Highway Blaster on mine for over two years. I hooked it directly to the horn wires without a relay and have had occasions to lean on it. I have never had a fuse blow or any wiring problems...
"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity" - Robert Heinlein
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Re: Brent's Replacement horn ???
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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some turkey in GA unplugged my Blaster!
we should do this every weekend!
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Re: Brent's Replacement horn ???
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Big Bore
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Big Bore
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Probably because you were turning off people's bikes WHILE THEY RIDING THEM  (btw, it was not me)
"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity" - Robert Heinlein
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Re: Brent's Replacement horn ???
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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is that what did it??? I'll just turn the gas off next time!
we should do this every weekend!
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Re: Brent's Replacement horn ???
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Quote:
Probably because you were turning off people's bikes WHILE THEY RIDING
lol we used to do that when i was younger. nothing like blasting buy some one and hitting there kill switch.
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Re: Brent's Replacement horn ???
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Did you ever sneak over & put their kickstand down??? makes for a funny looking left turn! 
we should do this every weekend!
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Re: Brent's Replacement horn ???
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Quote:
'fraid not, Matt...running any device for a period of time won't change it's total current draw...time will determine the total energy used.
Hang on, if you operate a 5A device for 1 minute then you'll use .083Ah, whereas if you operate it for 1 hour you'll draw 5Ah, correct? Therefor total current drawn will increase with the period of operation, if I'm right? I think we both meant more or less the same thing there, I just got my terminology wrong.
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A capacitive load will initially draw more current at turn on, an inductive load will draw less. Since a resistor is a phase linear device...
Doesn't a simple press button counts as a capacitive device during initial contact due to contact bounce? Which would mean even in this simple DC device there'd be a higher peak current drawn when it's first started? Or have I got it completely turned around? I may have been getting confused with the "inrush current" thing from when I did a little project making a halogen dive light and had to include a current limiting circuit to reduce bulb failure. I'm certainly no expert, just a hobbyist and just as likely to be wrong. However I still maintain that installing a relay in this case is so simple & cheap that there's no reason NOT to do it.
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Re: Brent's Replacement horn ???
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Old Wolf is correct, running a device for a longer period of time will not increase current draw (i.e. current will not become greater than 5A), this is because Ohm's law states I=VR (I=current, V=voltage, R=Resistance) and the voltage and resistance cannot change on this circuit.
Inrush current is a condition associated with transformers (your halogen light circuit) or electric motors mainly, not horns. It is caused by the resistance of the windings being low at start-up because of no inductance (transformer) or back emf (motor) being produced, so again back to Ohms law I=VR when resistance is lower the current draw increases.
My vote is for no relay, for two reasons: there is a fuse in line with the horn, and less wiring to complicate things and break down!
TBA, Stainless extractors / drag pipes, 65mm over forward controls, Thruxton needles, 904cc, head ported, lowered 1-inch, Console removed, relocated battery box, Australia.
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Re: Brent's Replacement horn ???
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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Just make sure that fuse doesn't control anything else important. When I was having problems with my blinkers, and the fuse would blow, it would also take out my BRAKE light. I don't mind if my blinkers go on the fritz mid-ride, but I would hate to lose my brake light!
Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
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Re: Brent's Replacement horn ???
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Big Bore
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Big Bore
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FYI
The horn, brake light, and indicators are on fuse 7, which is 10A
"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity" - Robert Heinlein
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Re: Brent's Replacement horn ???
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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Hah! See? Wouldn't want to lose your brake light We do not NEEED a lot of things for these bikes, but we still use them...
Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
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Re: Brent's Replacement horn ???
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Big Bore
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Big Bore
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When I get a chance and just for giggles, I am going to measure the current draw of that Fiamm. Enquiring minds need to know! 
"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity" - Robert Heinlein
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Re: Brent's Replacement horn ???
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Quote:
Hang on, if you operate a 5A device for 1 minute then you'll use .083Ah, whereas if you operate it for 1 hour you'll draw 5Ah, correct? Therefor total current drawn will increase with the period of operation, if I'm right? I think we both meant more or less the same thing there, I just got my terminology wrong.
You're right, I think you are saying the same thing...what you are calling total current drawn is energy consumed, which is actually power * time. Remember, current is actually coulombs per second, that is I=Q/t, therefore Q=It...for example, if we have a 5A current flowing for 30 minutes, we have a total of 9000 coulombs of electron charge. This would just be a silly way to express energy consumption, so we use Ampere/hours instead...just makes more sense.
Quote:
Doesn't a simple press button counts as a capacitive device during initial contact due to contact bounce? Which would mean even in this simple DC device there'd be a higher peak current drawn when it's first started?
Nope...the horn winding is a coil of wire, which means it has inductance and resistance. And contact bounce is really only of any concern in digital communications circuits.
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However I still maintain that installing a relay in this case is so simple & cheap that there's no reason NOT to do it.
Like I said, in my opinion, if a person likes to tinker and play, installing a relay certainly isn't going to hurt anything (assuming it's installed properly! ), but I personally wouldn't bother.
'02 Blk/Slvr BA, Jireh fishtails, Freak, no AI, 160/42, 18T
She is the Beauty, I am the Beast.
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 Re: Brent's Replacement horn ???
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Loquacious
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If, like some people say, loud pipes don't save lives, why bother with a loud horn?
Steelheart- '03 Speedmaster Black/Yellow
The Hayabusa Killa
16" Shorties/140 mains/Airbox drilled
Procom CDI
"There is no cure for Celibacy. But we can treat the symptoms."
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Re: Brent's Replacement horn ???
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"Lighten up, Francis."
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"Lighten up, Francis."
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Re: Brent's Replacement horn ???
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Loquacious
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this horn works great in parking lots.
we should do this every weekend!
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Re: Brent's Replacement horn ???
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05 TBA Mulberry/Silver, Thunder Bike pipes, K&N single Filter, 132 main Jet's, Snorkles Removed
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Re: Brent's Replacement horn ???
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In all my years as an electrician, I can't say I've ever hear of "ampacity"
Creative terminology. correct , and creative.
Last edited by michael888; 02/02/2007 11:54 PM.
Aussies have got.....BUNDY RUM!!
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Re: Brent's Replacement horn ???
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Quote:
In all my years as an electrician, I can't say I've ever hear of "ampacity"
Creative terminology. correct , and creative.
LOL...I'm afraid I can't take credit for it...it actually came from a textbook that I used many years ago. The author used the term 'ampacity' to rate the current carrying capacity of wires according to AWG size. I'm not an electrician, but I in electronics engineering I frequently have to guage wire size, so it's a term I sometimes use...maybe it's a North American thing...?
'02 Blk/Slvr BA, Jireh fishtails, Freak, no AI, 160/42, 18T
She is the Beauty, I am the Beast.
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Re: Brent's Replacement horn ???
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Loquacious
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Iceman,
I assume you got the message already, but add the simple relay. I had a '74 Yamaha TX650A to which I added a horn similar to a Stebels(sp?) Nautilus. I omitted the relay and soon had to have the wiring harness replaced after one long blast. I had just given my Triumph/Norton buddies a hard time about their Lucas electrics when we took off from a restaurant. I blew my horn excessively at an idiot, then about 10 seconds later, they were blowing their horns. I looked back and saw my smoke escaping from the tail light assembly. When I looked ahead, smoke was also getting out on the handle bar controls and headlight. The bike abruptly dies and they got a laugh. My main fuse was intact and I must attribute the wiring burnup to the lack of a relay. Our more electrically adept members may be able to explain. But everyone knows that electrical stuff don't work if the smoke gets out.
Get your horn and add a relay.
Ride Safe,
Dennis
Triumph, it's how I live and what I ride.
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Re: Brent's Replacement horn ???
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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Quote:
If, like some people say, loud pipes don't save lives, why bother with a loud horn?
Mainly because most cagers recognize horn sounds as "someone is mad at me" as opposed to loud pipes as "there must be one of the dam annoying bikers around, I'm gonna ignore him."
Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
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