Bonneville America Forums Forums Technical Forums General Tech Possible Failed Oil Pump? Bike down hard (LONG)

Riding back from Memphis, TN, about an hour and 15 minutes from where I live, the Low Oil Pressure light came on, at which point I pulled over to the side of the road on HWY 98. When I pulled over, the engine still sounded fine, and revved freely. My best friend who was riding behind me said that he didn't see any smoke, the bike's oil level was fine, and the engine didn't seem to be any hotter than was warranted for riding on the highway. We weren't too far from a service station, so I made the decision to try and limp to the service station. On the way there, the bike cut out but immediately fired back up, so we kept crawling towards HWY 57. Once we were on HWY 57, the bike started to seize so I pulled the clutch in and coasted to the side of the road. Still no smoke or excessive heat, and oil level was fine. While waiting for another friend to show up with trailer, for %$% and grins, we added about 1/3 of a quart of an oil, started the engine with no problems, and checked to see if the light went out, which it didn't.

So, right now, my preliminary guess is I have a failed oil pump, looking through the service manual, the rear pump is the pump that sends oil through the main oil gallery and up to the low oil pressure sensor. My intention right now is to break the frame and drop the sump plate to inspect the oil pick-up strainer, and try to get a look-see at what portion of the oil passages are visible with the strainer removed. Once I put the sump plate back on, then I'll remove the clutch and pull both oil pumps and the oil feed pipes, and clean and inspect in accordance with the service manual. Hopefully the cause of the low oil pressure will be readily apparent at this point, so then I'll put everything back together, possibly with a new oil pump(s), and then fire the bike up to see if I still have low oil pressure. Provided the stupid light goes out, then I'm going to pull the cams and the head to inspect the camshaft bearing journals, the camshaft bearing saddles and bearing caps, and the Cylinder walls, for any scoring or other visible damage from my little baby-it-along stunt (yeah, I knew what I was risking), and make decisions based on that. If I find scoring on the cylinder walls and camshafts, then I will most likely choose to drop the engine and disassemble to look at the crank and rod bearings / journals. I'm hoping not to find anything out of whack, and if the cams and cylinder walls are clean, then I'm going to put everything back together, and just keep an eye on oil consumption. My ride is probably going to be down for a couple of months, any comments and insight would be greatly welcomed. Yeah, I'm pretty disappointed, my bike has less than 26,000 miles, and I'm pretty conscientous with regards to the maintenance and oil changes, so at this point, anything is possible.

Sorry to hear this, Michael...sounds like you've got some major work ahead of you. But at least you've got a plan of action, and the ability to go forward with it. Hope it works out that damage is minimal, and you're back on the road soon. Keep us posted.

Since the engine didn't heat up, I'm more suspicious of the oil pump than the strainer. Both pumps pull from the same strainer. If it were blocked, I think the engine would have heated up because the front pump runs oil up through the cylinders for cooling and then out to the oil cooler.
If it turns out that the problem was caused by something that was probably a manufacturing defect, it would be a good idea to contact Triumph. Never know if they might give you some help with the repairs as a goodwill thing.

Thanks for the input Greybeard, I probably will give Triumph America a hoot if and when I figure out that the failure was due to a manufacturing defect, especially since my warranty only expired last month. Good point on the consideration of the pump vice the strainer, I still plan on pulling both though, since those are the easier things to do, as compared to breaking the block open to look at the pressure relief valve, or trace out each and every oil passage.

I don't know what your dealer is like, but myself, I'd let him diagnose this. Only 1 month out of warranty and you lose oil pressure - that is a repair he should stand behind, even if only partially. As long as you have service records and receipts and didn't do any drastic mods to the engine, you should have an excellent arguement for Triumph to participate in the repair.

On the COG web site ([Kawa] Concours Owners Group) I read about a fellow who lost his overhead cam and rocker arms (on his recently purchased used bike) because the upper oil passage way was clogged with deteriorated oil filter paper.

(recently purchased used) is probably the key to that one....

The first thing I would do is hook up a mechanical gauge to find out exactly how much , if any, oil pressure you have. Engines just don't run too long without oil pressure... just a thought..

You can test the pumps easily by just unhooking a few od the oil fittings and turn the motor over with the starter, it should squirt oil out very hard and a lot of it, very quickly: have pans and rags ready. (Ask me how I know this one...?)
I would think that if either of the mechanical oil pumps failed, you would hear some weird noises since something would have to be physically broken.
I agree that you should take it to the dealer ASAP and let them have a go at it if the above test shows a good flow.

To all, my thanks for your continued input. Dinqua, FWIW, Jojje over at the rat.net suggested the same squirting trick, by removing the pressure sender at the back of the cylinder block. What the heck, couldn't hurt the engine much more than it may have already been hurt by me. Also, it will give me something else to talk to when I start calling to Triumph and the dealership. You guys will be the first to know whatever I find!

Just to reiterate some key points about the condition:

No smoking
No leaking
Oil Level Sat
No excess heat that I could discern
No abnormal sounds or vibes that I could discern
Engine starts up when cold.

Just tried the squirting trick last night...NOTHING. Spun the engine twice with the starter for about 5 seconds both time, didn't get a drop out of either the braided rear oil line behind the cylinder block, or from the oil pressure sender orifice. Tonight, I'm going to drain and strain the oil and remove the filter, and see if anything shows up there, hopefully by the end of the week, I'll have what I need to take down the sump, and pull the clutch.

Maybe a bum oil filter? I have had 2 bad filters in my vehicles. One of them was brand new, worked fine cruising but when you accelerated the oil pressure droped to zero.

Just got off the phone with my original dealership (D&D in Pensacola, FL), the owner recommended I pull the clutch cover and look at the gears for the oil pumps, said they're plenty visible with the clutch still in place. He seemed optimistic about the possibility of Triumph extending a "good will" warranty provision, so hopefully I can get my bike up and running without too much expense and time wasted.

I would imagine they would be even more willing since you are basically doing all the work and it would only cost them their cost for parts to keep a customer happy.

Well the dealer said (and this didn't surprise me) that if Triumph did make a special extension to my warranty, they would probably do so with the proviso that a Triumph Dealership do all the work, which is fine with me. I told the dealer, and I'm pretty sure he understood where I was coming from, that if Triumph was to tell me too bad, so sad, that I wouldn't bother with either of the two local dealerships at all, and just do all the stuff myself. If they (D&D) do end up tearing my engine down, I make take the opportunity to do some things to the engine, like flowing the head and a 3-angle valve job, maybe giving the dealership Carrillo rods to install, instead of the OE rods, and may consider a big bore if the original cylinders are badly scored. For now though, I'm going to pull the clutch cover when I get home from work, and go from there.

Good point. At least you are saving them the diagnostic work, and you are saving yourself extra down-time by having to drop it off and leave it to them to decide when to get to it!

Thanks, maybe by the weekend, I'll have some kind of corporate resolution that I can work off of. Over on the rat.net, Jojje told me that the oil pump gears are made out of nylon, probably as a weight and cost measture. If the gears are the culprit, I'll be strongly tempted to order new gears, and then in turn hand them over to a machine shop in order for them to duplicate the gears using billet.

I hear ya. Gears are tricky... It's a science in and of itself. But I'm sure it's been done before.

Well, took the clutch cover off yesterday, and confirmed that the oil pump gears are the definite culprit. The rear oil pump (the one that pressurizes the oil pressure sender) gear has about half a millimeter of tooth thickness left on the outboard side, everything inboard of that is chewed down to the point where I was able to freewheel the rear oil pump gear. The front oil pump gear was in better shape, but also seemed like it was starting to bevel inboard. I've definitely got something to talk to now, when I give Triumph a call later this morning.

On that note, based on my misfortune, my honest recommendation to everyone that intends do their own clutch change-out is to spend a few extra minutes running a finger over the exposed gear faces of the two oil pump gears; you don't have to remove the clutch basket to get a general feel for how those gears are holding up, and it could potentiall save you a lot of heartache. Best regards to all.

Great info!! Any pics?

Not yet, with the clutch basket and gears still installed, there's not much of a good perspective to capture the gear teeth. Rest assured, somehow, someway, they are coming off fairly soon, at which point, I will post the pics. They're pretty much impossible to miss, they're the only non-metallic gears in that vicinity!

Cool Thanks. I figured I would find it if I ever went in, but having helped a couple newbies with stuff lately I know what it's like for someone to tackle something the first time, it's really good to have an idea of what you are looking for before you dig in.

Talked to a guy named Peter Carlio at Triumph America, he directed me to take the bike back to the dealership so that they could evaluate the engine to determine whether or not the stripped gears were a manufacturing defect, or if there was some other cause involved. Obviously I think that this is a definite manufacturing defect, but I guess there's always room for a bean-counter to have his differing opinion. I just made arrangements with the dealership to bring my bike in on saturday so they can do their thing.

Since the dealer knew right off what to look for, I suspect that they may have had a batch of gears that weren't properly heat treated. I think there is a really good chance Triumph will make good on it.

I sure hope so, since doing the overhaul myself would be prohibitively expensive and tediously slow. Yeah, it'd be kinda cool to do, but that's time that I'm not riding.

Quote:

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Talked to a guy named Peter Carlio at Triumph America,

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I think we met him on our trip to GA... (Chy?) Seemed like a good guy and willing to help out Jaymo.

If you can arrange to get pictures of the damaged gears that will be really interesting to see. I recently noticed while looking at some pictures of the motor with the clutch cover removed the oil pump gears looked like nylon. I was a little disapointed to see that. My guess is the nylon is quieter than metal gears. I'm with you, I would love to see a set of after market metal gears made available. Providing that is a proper solution. Seems to me, it would be better. (Brent, how about some oil pump gears??).

Good luck and hope you get your ride back soon!

Jay

Metal gears would add inertia and make starting harder, etc. Maybe negligable, but there may be a reason other than noise for them... Sorta like the brass screws on the carbs

Only other reasons I can think of would be cost and weight. Then again, it wouldn't be that hard to machine in lightening holes in a steel gear to reduce the weight. I will get pics though!

You're right, it's a noise reduction move, just like the wee blob of rubber on the drive sprocket. You can thank the politicians who believe that motorcycles should never be heard. Actually, it traces back to the insurance companies that own the politicians. If they make the "motorcycle experience" dissapointing enough, bikes will go away and not provide such expensive targets for their clients.

I can believe that is Triumph's motivation for using plastic gears, although it's kind of ridiculous for them to be using straight-cut gears everywhere else in the engine, where straight-cut gears are the noisiest cut. In the grand scheme of things, two more metallic straight-cut gears would have a negligible impact on the engine-generated noise, but I guess that may have been enough for Triumph's engineers.

Just spoke to the Triumph Dealership, the Dealer pulled the oil pumps and the driving gears off on Tuesday, and confirmed beyond a shadow of a doubt that the gear on the rear oil pump was stripped, and the cause of the low oil pressure. The dealer did say that the rear oil pump rotor (aluminium) did have some minor scoring, but in any case, both pumps and both gears were shipped off to Triumph that day, and I was already told that I most likely wouldn't get them back.

The Corporate Office has already authorized the Dealership to drop the engine, and take it down to the bearings, in order to make a complete report of the damage, the dealer is under the opinion that Triumph will probably subsidize the rebuild of the engine, to what extent is anyone's guess. The Dealer thinks that he can tear into the engine starting next Tuesday, and hopefully by the end of the week, will have a fair idea as to the condition of the engine.

That's the latest.

Just talked to the Dealership, they've taken the engine down, what was relayed to me was that the engine needs new main bearings, and that the dealership is waiting for a response from the Corporate Office. Talking to the Owner's wife, she couldn't tell me whether or not the bearing saddles are in good shape, which is a big deal to me, so I guess I'll need to talk to the Owner directly, once he hears back from the dealership. Will definitely be going over there on saturday morning to get an eyeball on my engine, this almost sounds too good to be true, but we shall see.

Well, went to the dealership saturday to take a look at the engine, it really was in surprisingly good shape! I asked the dealer directly about whether or not the main bearings had spun in the saddles and he said that they were exactly where they were supposed to be. The case halves were together, but looking down through the cylinder bores, there was no extruded aluminium on the sides of the saddles, and the bearing shells themselves wouldn't spin when I tried to spin them. He had the crankshaft on his lathe to clean up the journals a bit, but they looked fine to me, the cylinder walls were immaculate, the honing/cross-hatching was in excellent shape. The suction strainer wire mesh was completely intact, there were a few chunks of nylon on the inlet side of the screen, tucked into the bend. The camshaft journals were in good shape, a little polishing wouldn't hurt though. The cylinder head bearing saddles looked to be in good shape, as well, couldn't find the bearing caps to look at them.

The dealer is going to request new main and rod bearings, new rod bolts, a new suction strainer, new oil pumps, and new drive gears this week, the only questions that are still up in the air are how much of this repair will Triumph pay for, and what kind of Dealer / Factory warranty will I get on this overhauled engine.

I've already told the dealer that if Triumph will pay for the whole shooting match, to go ahead and install a big bore kit, and massage the intake ports. Also, he's had dealings with Falicon Crankshaft services in the past, and has no problem packaging up my crankshaft, flywheel, rods, and big bore pistons to have them blueprint and balance the rotating assembly. Hopefully by the end of the week, I'll know where I stand with regards to how much Triumph will pay for, more updates to follow!

GREAT NEWS!

Just got off the phone with the dealership, the authorization just came back from Triumph this morning to completely pay for all the parts required to reassemble my engine, and the calculated 10 hours of labor needed to put my bike back together! So I don't have to pay a dime for this rebuild!!! I just faxed over the work order form for Falicon Crankshaft services to do $600 worth of crank and rod machining work, the dealer will send the crank, rods, and big-bore pistons to Falicon in Clearwater, FL for all of the work. The Dealer is now on tap to do a big bore kit, and match-port the intakes to the cylinder head! I might actually get my bike by the end of July!!

That is good news! So what are you having done as far as machining goes?

It's about $600 worth of work, having the crank knife-edged, blueprinted, balanced, magnafluxed, chamfering the oiling holes, and micropolishing the journals. The rods are being polished, balanced, and shot-peened, and then both the crank and the rods are being cryogenically-treated. About two weeks worth of work.

Good stuff. Is that cryogenic treatment to prevent hydrogen embrittlement or something?

There's some material science answer to that, when I was still in school I could maybe have rattled it off, I sure as heck couldn't do it now. In general it just makes the metal stronger, this has been gaining increasing popularity, at least in the aftermarket VW world, Aircooled Technologies in Georgia somewhere started doing this about 3 or 4 years ago. It was only $50, so I kinda figured "what the heck?"

Sure can't hurt I think it is different than a heat treating hardening process in that it probably works on the surface more than the actual grain structure of things. Surface hardness is good in those moving parts!