 Vietnam and Napalm
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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I don't think this is gonna be political so I put it here instead of the cone. I watched a documentary on Vietnam yesterday and it showed the use of Napalm against the Viet Cong. How come the Government didn't get in trouble with the world for using chemical weapons in this war? Surely the use of this is against Geneva convention rules? Agent Orange was also used but at least with that chemical one could argue that it was for "deforestation". But Napalm? I just want to know the thinking or justification of the time. 
Fidelis et Fortis
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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International law does not specifically prohibit the use of napalm or other incendiaries against military targets,[31] but use against civilian populations was banned by the United Nations Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons (CCW) in 1980.[32] Protocol III of the CCW restricts the use of all incendiary weapons, but a number of countries have not acceded to all of the protocols of the CCW. According to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), countries are considered a party to the convention, which entered into force as international law in December 1983, as
long as they ratify at least two of the five protocols. Approximately 25 years after the General Assembly adopted it, the United States signed it on January 21, 2009, President Barack Obama's first full day in office.[33][34] Its ratification, however, is subject to a reservation that says that the treaty can be ignored if it would save civilian lives.[34]
Last edited by Yota; 05/30/2019 11:44 PM.
we should do this every weekend!
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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It is nasty Sh$t and people lived in those forests. Good thing is from first hand they have grown back and so have the people.
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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New Tires
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New Tires
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"But Napalm? I just want to know the thinking or justification of the time."
The same thing they are thinking when they use white phosphorous munitions.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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Joined: Jun 2009
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Quote:
"But Napalm? I just want to know the thinking or justification of the time."
The same thing they are thinking when they use white phosphorous munitions.
Terror.Of course we weren't terrorizing
We were bringing freedom and democracy.The B52 bombing apparently dropped more on Vietnam than was Nazi Germany during WW2.
Maybe this should go to the cone?
Last edited by findlay13; 06/02/2019 7:53 AM.
Dinosaur.
"Oh Man I only ride 'em.I don't know what makes 'em work". Donald "Oddball" Sutherland
"Don't let the bastards get you down". Kris Kristofferson
"I am only paranoid because everyone is against me". Larry [Frank Burns] Linville
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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Worn Saddle
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OP
Worn Saddle
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Quote:
Quote:
"But Napalm? I just want to know the thinking or justification of the time."
The same thing they are thinking when they use white phosphorous munitions.
Terror.Of course we weren't terrorizing
We were bringing freedom and democracy.The B52 bombing apparently dropped more on Vietnam than was Nazi Germany during WW2.
Maybe this should go to the cone?
Maybe. I just really was curious as to the thinking. We have spent of lot of time criticizing people like Assad for using chemical weapons, although I know they are more "biology" based. It just seemed to me to be an obvious infraction of rules laid down by the Geneva Convention after WW1. After all, what's the difference between roasting someone alive with chemicals and choking to death using mustard gas? (And part of the show I watched said that the area around the napalm attack turned to CO2 gas and apphixiated anybody close)
Fidelis et Fortis
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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A glaring difference is who it was used against. Assad used it against his own people with no(as far as I am aware)military presence. We used napalm against a military enemy, civilians gat it too but in that conflict you have to look at the enemy, they blended into the civilians with no way to tell the difference. So all we could act on is intelligence, the ones to blame for civilian casualties would be them for using human shields.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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At its narrowist Dong Hoi (which was absolutely flatend by US bombs) a port on the coast to the Lao border is about 46 km. The population was already very dense so where else could they go? Its not like the good old days of war "wait until you see the whites of their eyes"
I find they are a very practicle peoples. They knew they would eventually win, they fought off the French despite Hao Lo prison (Hanoi Hilton) and knew in time they would do the same to the American agressors and their puppet in the gov of the south. They did they have and life goes on.
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Quote:
Quote:
"But Napalm? I just want to know the thinking or justification of the time."
The same thing they are thinking when they use white phosphorous munitions.
....The B52 bombing apparently dropped more on Vietnam than was Nazi Germany during WW2.
Not surprising. An F-4 Phantom could carry more than twice the armament payload of a B-17.
Kevin - Luceo Non Uro
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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They didn't win they out lasted.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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We went home, they took over, they won.
Napalm is an abomination that is morally reprehensible. It was used as terror from above. As above we were not signed on as opposed to it. But it doesn't matter. We just simply say so what to the UN and do what we want.
We also hanged Japanese officers that waterboarded our boys. Then we magically figured out how much we liked waterboarding people.
Vietnam always confused me. The people fought the French to be free and not be a colony. They resisted and fought for a decade. The French left. Then the US that was founded on fighting for self rule fought in Vietnam killing unknown obscene numbers of Vietnamese people supporting colonialism.
60,000 or ours dead, a few hundred thousand damaged. I have never been able to figure that one out.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Exactly, we left, we didn't surrender, we won battle after battle until it became politically impossible for us to stay. The politicians over here are why it dragged on so long there and why we didn't have ultimate victory. They didn't win,they didn't drive us out, we left because of politics at home. We gave the country back to them. Had the politicians here butted out we would have crushed them. Instead we took battle after battle and gave the land back right after the battle, you can't win that way. If you take territory you have to keep it, politicians here would not allow that.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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We also split the country with Korea. Every other country went home but us. If you look at how long we have been in S. Korea you get a great snapshot of the largest long term success of the Military Industrial Complex. 60+ years standing a wall. AS if S. Korea is not armed well enough to hold onto their country now.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Quote:
We also split the country with Korea. Every other country went home but us. If you look at how long we have been in S. Korea you get a great snapshot of the largest long term success of the Military Industrial Complex. 60+ years standing a wall. AS if S. Korea is not armed well enough to hold onto their country now.
Really? With a neighbor that has the largest total military force on earth and is run by a nut?
Let's be honest - at this point South Korea is too important to the global economy to not be protected by us.
Kevin - Luceo Non Uro
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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The American Agression was only a setback for Vietnam, their history and mindset is a little longer then just a couple hundred years. BC they were part of China, their capital moved a couple times between Hanoi and Hue leveling the other capital upon exit.
Won/ Outlasted.... You say Po tai to I say Po tah to.
They are now the largest buyer of commercial HVAC in that part of the world outside China. Daikin loves them.
Now agent Orange another chemical dropped from the sky did have some long term effects which were pointed out up in the hill country around Dalat.
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Quote:
Quote:
We also split the country with Korea. Every other country went home but us. If you look at how long we have been in S. Korea you get a great snapshot of the largest long term success of the Military Industrial Complex. 60+ years standing a wall. AS if S. Korea is not armed well enough to hold onto their country now.
Really? With a neighbor that has the largest total military force on earth and is run by a nut?
Let's be honest - at this point South Korea is too important to the global economy to not be protected by us.
So, you really think NK would invade the south if we moved our, about 27,000, from the wall? They must not be that important or Australia would send 20,000 next year to spell us then England the year after that, then France etc.
So, I guess they are only important to us. Even though the south has 700,000 well fed and trained troops with serious tech and air power.
If you can't defend yourself after 65 years of help, you should surrender.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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New Tires
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New Tires
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Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Quote:
And what if your wrong?
That couldn't be, what are you thinking! 
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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New Tires
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New Tires
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Wonder who Canada will call if faces with an existential threat?
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Quote:
And what if your wrong?
Dude, MAC! The RIGHT word to have used in your above sentence would've been, "And what if YOU'RE wrong"! Yep, the contraction of "you are", NOT the possessive pronoun "your"!
(...geez, and when the hell will seemingly half of my fellow Americans begin getting THIS right, I wonder?!...YEP, contrary to how it seems the general consensus is today in the good ol' U.S. of A., AND despite how quite often a "certain someone" continually mangles the damn English language within his stupid little "Tweets", good grammar AND proper spelling ARE still important here, PEOPLE!)  
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Okay, and now that I've gotten THAT pet peeve of mine off my chest here... Did anyone here happen to catch Ken Burns' Vietnam War documentary that was shown a while back on PBS? (...in MY view it was yet another of Mr. Burns' comprehensive, fair-minded and overall excellently done look at some historically significant subject matter)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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American aggression? Was the Republic of Viet Nam a country or not? Was North Viet Nam a separate country? Did both countries sign a peace agreement promising to honor the border between them? Did the communists honor that agreement? Now who was the aggressor?
I guess the left would consider us the aggressor in Korea too. After all, the communists were not allowed to take over the South. Too bad for the population of the ROK. If we had followed the wishes of today's left wingers they too could be living like they do in the DPRK. Not that lefties give a good GD about actual people other than themselves.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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So Rich! You didn't think a thread started with the title "Vietnam and Napalm" wouldn't eventually segue into a total rehash of that war, and THEN the subsequent and almost inevitable posting by some around here of overgeneralizing the positions and opinions held by others as to their political leanings per such use of questionable phraseology as the last sentence in the above posting, HOW AGAIN??? (...jus' wonderin', 'cause I could've seen THIS comin' from the very first day you posted this baby here in The Lounge)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Quote:
Wonder who Canada will call if faces with an existential threat?
I think most would call their psychiatrist...well that is if one has one, there never seems to be enough to go around here in Canada.
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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New Tires
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New Tires
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Quote:
Quote:
And what if your wrong?
Dude, MAC! The RIGHT word to have used in your above sentence would've been, "And what if YOU'RE wrong"! Yep, the contraction of "you are", NOT the possessive pronoun "your"!
(...geez, and when the hell will seemingly half of my fellow Americans begin getting THIS right, I wonder?!...YEP, contrary to how it seems the general consensus is today in the good ol' U.S. of A., AND despite how quite often a "certain someone" continually mangles the damn English language within his stupid little "Tweets", good grammar AND proper spelling ARE still important here, PEOPLE!)
Yes I noticed the error after posting, but was too lazy to edit, you know I'm Irish.
Dwight, I hope YOU'RE doing well.. 
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
And what if your wrong?
Dude, MAC! The RIGHT word to have used in your above sentence would've been, "And what if YOU'RE wrong"! Yep, the contraction of "you are", NOT the possessive pronoun "your"!
(...geez, and when the hell will seemingly half of my fellow Americans begin getting THIS right, I wonder?!...YEP, contrary to how it seems the general consensus is today in the good ol' U.S. of A., AND despite how quite often a "certain someone" continually mangles the damn English language within his stupid little "Tweets", good grammar AND proper spelling ARE still important here, PEOPLE!)
Yes I noticed the error after posting, but was too lazy to edit, you know I'm Irish.
Dwight, I hope YOU'RE doing well..
Thanks, Mac! Yep, life is good here in beautiful picturesque Sedona Arizona, alright.
(...hope your, ahem, YOU'RE doin' well to, ahem, TOO!)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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The what if I am wrong has been answered. Vietnam is one country now. They are a major manufacturing country now.
So why did all of those people die? There are no what ifs on Vietnam, there is Vietnam.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Quote:
They didn't win they out lasted.
The old German WW1 "We were stabbed in the back"
I always remember the helicopters being pushing into the sea off the carriers decks and the scramble and panic trying to get on the choppers off the US Saigon embassy roof.Didn't look like "out lasting" to me Ian. WE [Australia was there too] for whatever the reasons, lost.
Dinosaur.
"Oh Man I only ride 'em.I don't know what makes 'em work". Donald "Oddball" Sutherland
"Don't let the bastards get you down". Kris Kristofferson
"I am only paranoid because everyone is against me". Larry [Frank Burns] Linville
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Exactly Each decade I get older I think how much the Hippies understood what I failed to grasp. Famous Song
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Quote:
Quote:
They didn't win they out lasted.
The old German WW1 "We were stabbed in the back"
I always remember the helicopters being pushing into the sea off the carriers decks and the scramble and panic trying to get on the choppers off the US Saigon embassy roof.Didn't look like "out lasting" to me Ian. WE [Australia was there too] for whatever the reasons, lost.
In 1979 I was flying search missions to find Vietnamese refugees in boats fleeing the terror there. Funny how people have forgotten that. I personally only found one boat, but they were all dead already.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Quote:
Quote:
They didn't win they out lasted.
The old German WW1 "We were stabbed in the back"
I always remember the helicopters being pushing into the sea off the carriers decks and the scramble and panic trying to get on the choppers off the US Saigon embassy roof.Didn't look like "out lasting" to me Ian. WE [Australia was there too] for whatever the reasons, lost.
No, they out lasted. That scene was because we had pulled troops out already so they weren't there to stop the flow. They attacked as we left instead of just letting us go. We were leaving either way they just chose to attack dishonorably after or troop strength had drawn down already or they wouldn't have gotten through.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Ian we LOST.Because of pulling troops out,turning the fighting over to the useless leaders of the poor South Vietnamese military, the Paris talks or the protests at home or whatever, WE LOST! We were, as you say leaving either way, win or lose.Which doesn't sound to me like leaving winners.We had had enough.We retreated holding onto any thread of an excuse to sound like we weren't.We promised the South Vietnamese we'd continue to protect them from aggression from the North which was totally BS.Everyone knew[or should have known] the North would swamp the corrupt incompetent South the moment We weren't there doing the fighting.We ran out on the pro West Laotians too.If you can get it, read a book called "the Ravens" We lost.
Dinosaur.
"Oh Man I only ride 'em.I don't know what makes 'em work". Donald "Oddball" Sutherland
"Don't let the bastards get you down". Kris Kristofferson
"I am only paranoid because everyone is against me". Larry [Frank Burns] Linville
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Refusing to supply the South with fuel, arms and other supplies didn't help. WE also refused to honor our commitments under the 1973 Paris peace accords while allowing the NVA to blatantly violate theirs.
We actually got everything we wanted and fought for in 1973. We threw it away in 1975 because congress preferred that the communists win.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Quote:
Ian we LOST.Because of pulling troops out,turning the fighting over to the useless leaders of the poor South Vietnamese military, the Paris talks or the protests at home or whatever, WE LOST! We were, as you say leaving either way, win or lose.Which doesn't sound to me like leaving winners.We had had enough.We retreated holding onto any thread of an excuse to sound like we weren't.We promised the South Vietnamese we'd continue to protect them from aggression from the North which was totally BS.Everyone knew[or should have known] the North would swamp the corrupt incompetent South the moment We weren't there doing the fighting.We ran out on the pro West Laotians too.If you can get it, read a book called "the Ravens" We lost.
Our military industrial complex liked it a lot for the years we were there.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Eisenhower apparently said beware of the military-industrial complex.It was and is true.
The same guy who wrote "the Ravens" wrote "Air America" too [not the movie]but the Ravens opened my eyes a lot.A lot of the places in Thailand, and Vientiane Laos he mentions I have visited .I THINK the guy's name was Christopher Robins but I'm not sure.
Dinosaur.
"Oh Man I only ride 'em.I don't know what makes 'em work". Donald "Oddball" Sutherland
"Don't let the bastards get you down". Kris Kristofferson
"I am only paranoid because everyone is against me". Larry [Frank Burns] Linville
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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Worn Saddle
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OP
Worn Saddle
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Quote:
So Rich!
You didn't think a thread started with the title "Vietnam and Napalm" wouldn't eventually segue into a total rehash of that war, and THEN the subsequent and almost inevitable posting by some around here of overgeneralizing the positions and opinions held by others as to their political leanings per such use of questionable phraseology as the last sentence in the above posting, HOW AGAIN???
(...jus' wonderin', 'cause I could've seen THIS comin' from the very first day you posted this baby here in The Lounge)
Yeah, I think I'm a little nieve sometimes. But I really just had the thought that napalm was a serious chemical weapon and somehow we got away with using it. I'm betting that if ANY country today used it the way we did we would express outrage! Even though I did kinda get my answer, it has been interesting to see the different outlooks on the war.
Fidelis et Fortis
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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I never said we won but we were not beaten militarily, not even close.To me we only lost if they beat us on the battlefield and drove us out, that didn't happen so we didn't lose we left and gave the country back to them. We actually had, and still have, the power to level the country without setting foot there.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,060 Likes: 6 |
Quote:
I never said we won but we were not beaten militarily, not even close.To me we only lost if they beat us on the battlefield and drove us out, that didn't happen so we didn't lose we left and gave the country back to them. We actually had, and still have, the power to level the country without setting foot there.
the first war where "ground taken and held" was replaced by "body count". If I remember right, according to the show I watched last week, during the Tet offensive which centered on holding two important hills, the enemy lost upwards of 20,000 soldiers compared to our 240. What a massacre. The Viet Cong just kept sending waves of poor, undertrained "grunts" into blistering fire, including close air support. Broke the back of the Viet Cong but also lost support for the war back home because of extensive news reporting.
Fidelis et Fortis
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,629 Likes: 7
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,629 Likes: 7 |
Quote:
Quote:
I never said we won but we were not beaten militarily, not even close.To me we only lost if they beat us on the battlefield and drove us out, that didn't happen so we didn't lose we left and gave the country back to them. We actually had, and still have, the power to level the country without setting foot there.
the first war where "ground taken and held" was replaced by "body count". If I remember right, according to the show I watched last week, during the Tet offensive which centered on holding two important hills, the enemy lost upwards of 20,000 soldiers compared to our 240. What a massacre. The Viet Cong just kept sending waves of poor, undertrained "grunts" into blistering fire, including close air support. Broke the back of the Viet Cong but also lost support for the war back home because of extensive news reporting.
Good thing Walter Cronkite wasn't giving the blow by blow in WWII.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Vietnam and Napalm
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,236 Likes: 56
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,236 Likes: 56 |
"American Aggression" Sorry I meant to get back to that sooner but what can I say I got busy with wife's 65th and other things.
War was never declared from what I recollect and well while travelling in Vietnam last year I kind of adopted their version of the name for what happened.
The French before did their best to break the Vietnamese spirit throwing political disadents into prison severly torturing them and exploiting the population for their own gain but then the French gave up. Americans came along after inheriting the situation and thought with their superior fire power they could defeat the will of the people but the Vietnamese again outlasted the aggressor uniting the country under one government crushing the corrupt military.
In the end it was a proxy war against the Chinese and Russians fought on someone else's soil.
Back to Napalm, was it dropped on Laos and the "secret" war in Cambodia as well?
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