Bonneville America Forums Forums Off Topic Discussion Forums Lounge I'm scared, really scared

You are so right Mr. D. Lets be much more civil and discuss the pros and cons of Iraq.

I'd like to add here that there is also a very good reason for my continuing to post to this thread, which is that I am five posts away from moving to "addict" from "enthusiast," and of course, though this may seem to the Carpel Tunnel folks a mere bagatelle, to those of us who are still trying to evolve our way out of the protoplasmic mud that is the bottom of the posting pond, being "addicted" rather than merely "enthusiastic" can be seen as something rather special.

...and wasn't that a long, yet totally grammatical, sentence!

Siggy

Glad you asked about the bike color, Rob. It's black and silver. Five to go

Siggy

Oh yeah...I prob could have guessed by your avatar...silly me...what about your pipes, jets, uni or paper, (3) corbin or stock, and ....what kind of oil do you use ??!!(0)

Well Rob, if you think I'm childish enough to continue this line of witless dribble just so I can reach 400 posts in, say, the next 5 minutes, then you're smarter than the average bear! I seem to recall I did something similar to this to reach 200 - and was soundly admonished by a moderator (secure in their Carpel Pooh Bear status) for behaving in a less than adult manner. The fundamental flaw in that argument was that there is assumed to be some definable "adult" manner against which my behavior could be measured. This, of course, is a common fallacy as the slightest glance at how humans behave towards each other on a daily basis illustrates full well. We have, as a species, yet to climb out of the infant sandbox and become potty trained.

Siggy

you could re-read some posts and those you feel are of import ...give them the old BTTT ...out of kindness of course!

hey kenny, nicely said man!!!!!! i dont understand how those idiots in mass. keep electing a murder for their senator and why people cant see the socialism in the democratic party. J.F.K. has to be spinning in his grave. ASK NOT WHAT YOUR COUNTRY CAN DO FOR YOU BUT WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR YOUR COUNTRY!!!!!!!

Newt

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why people cant see the socialism in the democratic party.

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Having been brought in the UK during the 70s and 80s, I'd just like to point out that the notion of "socialism" is clearly relative. The US has yet to experience Socialism in its glory. The Democratic party is, in my observation, some way from being "Socialist." Even Tony Blair's government - and feel free to hop in if this sound wrong - is more socialist than the Dems.

Not too long ago, the British Labour Party used to talk about "Clause Four Socialism," which was based on the premise that the party's aim should be "...To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service."

Yes, I snagged that from Wikipedia, but I honestly couldn't remember it by rote - unlike the Clause Four Socialists of the 70s.

Anyhow, I just wanted to put the term "socialism" into some global context. Like other words such as "freedom," "morality," and "truth," "Socialism" can be as slippery as a bucket of eels swimming in oil.

Siggy

I was under the impression that our sons and daughters were over in Iraq fighting against religous fanatics trying to control the government. So why are some so quick to want to bring up god in american politics. I don't think god is anymore pleased with american politics and actions than he is with muslim politics. What we need is politicans with some common sense. And no lawyers or religious leaders.

You are so right Newt about the socialism in the Dems.

I think I will apply to get one of those no-bid contracts. Oh,that wouldn't be socialism, that would be Fascism.

Vote 3rd party! is my future motto. It is not a wasted vote, it is a message.

750 more post to 1000 I am on a role

They all suck!

hail to the better men and women of the u.s. military. may god bless each and every one of these elite, noble, warriors. without them, and their sacrifices, this site, let alone the debate, might not exist.

the baltimore (socialist) sun reports (to their chagrin) that:
"War in their future, Mids choose Marines
More Naval Academy seniors are making the Corps their first preference, lately more than it can take
By Bradley Olson
Sun reporter
Originally published March 25, 2006
When it came time for Jake Dove, a senior at the U.S. Naval Academy, to decide how he would fulfill his required military duty after graduation, there was no question about it: Marine Corps all the way.

Despite a war that has entered its fourth year with mounting casualties and waning public support, more and more midshipmen at the Annapolis military college are volunteering for the Marines when asked to choose how they will fulfill the five-year commitment required of all academy graduates.
When the assignments were made official last month for the 992 members of the class of 2006, 209 were placed as officers with the Corps - the most in the school's 161-year history. And more would have done so if there were enough openings: an additional 45 who sought the Marines were assigned to other duty when the allotment was filled.
...

Three years ago, 162 slots were set aside for the Marines and the academy ended up turning away some applicants. The number of slots was increased the next year, to 195, and the Corps drew 207 applicants. Last year the cap was set at 207; more midshipmen were turned away.

Dove said the threat of being hurt or killed in Iraq is "always in the back of my head, and I'm sure it's the same for everybody going in the Marines."

"It's a consideration, something you have to prepare yourself for mentally," he said. "But this is the way I want to serve my country and I'm not going to let anything get in the way of what I've always wanted to do, which is to lead men in combat."

...

"There are many more that want to be Marines than we can take," he said to the academy's Board of Visitors, which includes members of Congress, retired military officials and educators. "There are many more that want to be SEALS than we can take. It's very heartwarming to see the determination of these young people and what they want to do."

Surveys the academy conducts of midshipmen show that the upturn in Marine interest will continue for the classes of 2007, 2008 and 2009, with more than 300 current plebes declaring their interest in the Marine Corps, more than in surface warfare or submarines.

...

Midshipmen are asked to list a first, second and third choice for their duty preference. A service board makes the final decision based on the preferences, order of merit or class standing, academic qualifications, physical requirements and the needs of each service branch. The students learned of their assignments in November, and the selections were made official last month in an annual ceremony where the mids find out the specifics of their assignment, such as the ship on which they will serve.

Sheivon Davis, a 23-year-old sprinter on Navy's women's track team and a graduate of Baltimore Polytechnic Institute, said she asked for Marine duty and was surprised that she wasn't selected.

"I was clearly qualified, but they turned down a lot of qualified people," said Davis, who will become a junior officer on the USS Elrod in Norfolk, Va., after graduation. "I guess it was just God telling me, 'No, Sheivon, you don't want to be in Iraq with bullets flying past your head.'"

Before 2004, when Rempt responded to the increased interest of midshipmen by asking the Navy and Marine Corps leaders to take more Marine billets from the academy, the Marine Corps had selected about 16 percent of the graduating class. Now it's closer to 20 percent, which academy officials say better mirrors the proportion of Marine Corps officers in the leadership of the combined Navy-Marine service branch.

...

Charles Krulak, a former commandant of the Marine Corps, who originally pushed for an increase in Marine billets in the late 1990s, said he was pleased with the change and believed it reflects well on the class of midshipmen, despite an almost 25 percent decline in applications to the academy in recent years.

"What I'm happy about is that midshipmen want to walk to the sound of the guns," he said, "whether it's on the sea, under the sea, in the air or on the ground. The people who are coming to the Naval Academy want to serve, and they want to be leaders."

...

Dove and Joe Mihoces, another senior who will become a Marine, said their decision was due in large part to the influence of 1st Lt. Mike Simon, a junior officer and 2003 academy graduate whom they befriended and who recently went to Iraq for a second tour.

The thrill of being in the action in Iraq or in any combat situation is something he and a lot of people think about, said Dove, 22, but it's not the primary consideration.

"My father was a paratrooper in Vietnam, and talking to him definitely de-glamorizes what happens out there," he said of combat situations. "It's something that has to be done, and I'd like to be the one that does it. I'd like to be the one that leads Marines in a combat environment."

Dove and Mihoces will go to the Marine Corps' Basic School at Quantico, Va., for six months. After that, Dove could be deployed and Mihoces will go to flight school in Pensacola, Fla., to join a smaller community of Marine Corps pilots. Although he won't necessarily be leading troops on the ground in Iraq, Mihoces said he is thrilled to be in the Corps.

"You could take the pilot away from me tomorrow and I would still want to be a Marine," he said."

well russel, it seems you know as much about peanut allergy as you do the elite and noble warriors that permit your ability to 'blog'. don't get it? didn't expect you to.

Freddy Fender, wasn't that the name of the guy who wrote the song "Wasted Days and Wasted Nights"?

Comes to mind when I bring up ths thread. Nobody wins.

Jethro,

By "elite and noble warriors", I'm assuming you mean the youth of 19 to 24 year olds, who are, as I watch the names of these kids scroll down the televison set each week, seem to be the main casualties among the our troups in Iraq. These young men and women who sign up to DEFEND our country AND OUR VALUES are indeed a useful and much needed front in America's continued efforts to do just that...defend our nation's interests. ANYBODY who performs their jobs to the upmost degree, especially those who we rely on "keep the peace" are a most valuable asset to us.

Now....I've heard more than once from those who have decided that our Iraq venture is "working and is a noble cause and all you have to do is ask our troups over there and they'll tell you that this fight is worth the costs".(A recently conducted poll of our men and women in uniform reported that over 80 percent of them "believed" Saddam Hussein was responsible for 911, and that out Iraqi incursion was retaliation for that attack.(a falsehood that even President Bush has admitted to, but seems to want to subconsciously push to the public)

Well, I don't know about you, BUT, I've NEVER meet a 20 year old who knew his a$$ from his elbow about how the world REALLY IS or how it REALLY works. I surely didn't at that age, and I'd venture to guess that you didn't either. Not to say that I've got a complete handle on it now at 54 years of age, but those extra 34 years have opened my eyes a little more to reality.

So to me, asking these brave men and women over there the Geo-Political rambifications of our presences there is somewhat akin to asking their contemporaries who for whatever reason are now in college, how they feel about the over-consumption of alcohol during Spring Break in Cancun.

This is NOT to say that those kids fighting over there are clueless, but THAT oft-used argument just seems a ridiculous exercise in logic.

NOW...I LOVE this country. I have the upmost respect for it's basic tenents, which in my view stress that, the individual when given a chance to better himself has more opportunities to do JUST THAT HERE without the overt restrictions and repression that many citizens in many other parts of the world must contend with.

And with this INDIVIDUALITY often comes the added benefit that the inherent commerce of thought and deed that ensues, because of this diversity of thought...(to use a "Reaganesque" phrase)..."lifts all boats".

But what have you got when this INDIVIDUALITY is stifled by actions and words that suppose ANYONE who may disagree with the decisions of our leaders is automatically "DISLOYAL" and not to be trusted, and in many cases, to be despised?

Look....I for a multitude of reasons, which I have in the past stated, think this war in Iraq was and is counterproductive in our efforts to secure SECURITY for AMERICANS here and worldwide. BUT, what I think is EVEN MORE unconscionable than accusing them of being "extremists"(Communists, Socialists, Fascists, what-have-you), is THE attempt to deny the RIGHT TO VOICE an opposing opinion that may differ from the "Powers That Be" i.e. our elected officials or your own as UNAMERICAN, or to suggest to those that hold those differing opinions to "get lost" or "then move", when in actuality it's the UPMOST expression of AMERICANISM when one does indeed DISSENT!

Dwight
(now....I think I've had enough of this thread....It's been "fun")

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BUT...after coming back and reading this WHOLE thread yet again, I have noticed that there may be ONE CONSTANT in each of our arguments that I think are very telling as to how some here present POLEMIC opinions, i.e. "the Party Line" and thus contribute to this forgone conclusion as an irrelevant exercise.

If any of you would ALSO re-read this, I think you would see that my earlier "treatise" on my views shows a willingness to look at BOTH SIDES in this debate and cast aspersions upon BOTH Political Parties, my fellow Americans, my fellow world inhabitants AND EVEN MYSELF... BECAUSE if I know ANYTHING, it's that NO ONE is ALWAYS RIGHT, and that WE ALL share in some way the responsibility of why this world IS not the way each of us would care to see it.

BUT, what I've ALSO noticed is that the move "conservative" or "right-of-center" each individual here is the MORE LIKELY to catagorically blame the "other-side" for ALL the ills of society.

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That's indeed a phenomenon of politics that I've noticed and commented on before.
During President Clinton's administration, whenever I would criticize any of his policies or actions, one of my co-workers would automatically attack President Reagan's policies instead of defending what Pres. Clinton was doing.
Now I see the same thing on the opposite bank. Any criticism of President Bush is met with attacks on Pres. Clinton's policies, and even rehashing of old attacks on anyone who dared to oppose President Bush's re-election. Too bad zombies can't be relegated to the movies.
I've said before, All of our elected leaders should have their feet held to the fire for their actions, especially by their supporters. Instead we end up with some kind of party worshipping cult that attacks anyone who dares to voice an opinion contrary to their own personal sharia.

Very well said Bill. They have nothing left to do anyhow.

They said they would fix education so we voted (Fixed)
They said they would fix welfare so we voted (Fixed)
Unemployment would be handled (Fixed)
Racial equality (Fixed)
Economy (Fixed)
National Security (Fixed)
Balanced Budget (Fixed)
Tax Reform (Fixed)

Every 4 years they keep running on these platforms that have been fixed for decades! They must think we are stupid. They did fix all that stuff didn't they??

America is a great country, so great it is hard to break it. We have a lot of folks trying to break it though. I am sure the Senators in Rome didn't think it would ever end either.
Our representatives need to wake up and smell the coffee.

jethro,
who here has attacked anything our troops are doing? These discussions are not about what our troops are doing or how valiant they are, but about our politicians, who are not valiant, and by my definition, many from both parties are about as close to being traitors as Benedict Arnold was. They serve not their country, but themselves and their friends. I was all for our overthrow of Afghanistan, and the Taliban, but recently it seems that what we got for our sacrifice, or more appropriately for the sacrifice of our elite, noble warriors (with which I wholeheartedly agree), since we know that not one son or daughter of a Congressman or President will die in these 2 wars, is little better than what was there before. Right now, the Kharzai government is weighing very carefully the option of allowing a converted Christian to be put to death by a crowd and by the Muslim Clerics who truly control Afghanistan, or bowing to the wishes of the West and to the letter of their Constitution, which says this man should be free to practice as he sees fit. He may well be set free, but if he is not snuck out of the country by our troops, the Clerics will hunt him down like a dog and stone him to death or hang him. And IF he is set free as the Kharzai government promises they will (after they declare him mentally unfit for converting), the Government faces a VERY REAL threat of overthrow by Muslim militias who are loyal to the Clerics. Women are still 3rd Class citizens (since the Constitution defers to and is based almost solely upon the Shiryah or Islamic Law? Stoning, hangings and beheadings are still a very likely outcome for any infraction against Islam. So,exactly what kind of "democracy" have the lives of our troops bought for us in Afghanistan. Why should I believe that the vast majority of Afghans aren't sympathetic to the Iranians, or to Osama Bin Laden (who, 5 years later is still out there taunting us!), or aren't actively supporting the Taliban or the Clerics chanting "Death to Bush", "Death to America" under the "freedoms" of the new Afghani Constitution. Sorry, but for the blood spilled by young American men and women, it seems like we got a VERY poor bargain! And I have little faith that Iraq will turn out much better, since the trend seems to favor Islamic Law over "democracy" in almost every country in that region, even amongst our staunchest allies. I hope every day that I'm wrong, but so far the events don't seem to be very promising.

FYI a start

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=\ForeignBureaus\archive\200603\FOR20060327c.html

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don't get it? didn't expect you to

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Now you're being silly. What exactly is the "it" I'm supposed to get, and how on earth can you presume whether I can be expected to get "it" or not? Further, I fail to see how you can even "expect" anything of me, considering you don't know me except through what I may have written with this group. Of course, you are free to speculate about the kind of person I am, the ideas I may support, and the color of my boxer briefs. However, let me assure you that I "get" many things, and maybe don't "get" others, but I don't "get" the idea that everything "we" do is right and everything "they" do is wrong. And yes, I do believe in the concept of moral relativism, with the tragic, brutal, cruel history of humanity to support that position.

On the other hand, nice to see you checking in on the blog

Siggy

GOOD LORD some of you are VERY LONG WINDED! Vegas

Vegas

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some of you are VERY LONG WINDED

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Oops. You're right. Mea culpa. OK, I'll shut up now. I think I got a little carried away - probably due to my becoming an Addict I think some of us become a little stir crazy during the winter months and that will be cured once we spend more time riding.

On the other hand, I'm not saying that "long winded" is necessarily a bad thing...

Siggy