 The demise of Pontiac
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Just read in Jalopnik that GM dropping the Pontiac line was a condition of the Govt bailout. 
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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10-9-8-7-6....HUH?! What am I doin' here ya ask, Steve? Well, I'm just countin' down the minites until one of our moderators spots this thread of yours here and moves it over to "another" forum, THAT'S all!  (...'cause I would've thought you would know by now that ALL "it's our bad ol' gov'ment's fault again" kinda threads NOW go over THERE!!!)  *edited to preserve the "sanctity" of another forum. 
Last edited by Dwight; 10/27/2013 10:45 PM.
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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Pontiac was just rebadged Chevy anyway.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Hell Bill, since about the mid-70s(and when most American cars became a piece of crap...well, up until fairly recently anyway) ALL of GM's cars were basically just rebadged Chevys, DUDE!!! (...remember the mid-70s "Cadillac" Seville...uh-huh, as you know, THAT one was just a gussied-up Chevy Nova, as just ONE example...and don't EVEN get me started on that POS "Cadillac" Cimarron!!!!) 
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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It was a Toyota Cressida as I seem to recall  I remember when I was working at an Oldsmobile dealer in the late '70s and people were getting seriously indignant when they found out that their Cutlass had a Chevy 305 engine
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Olds Firenza and Cimmeron. Trim, leather, and a better stereo. Both sucked actually
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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Maybe it's something else I'm thinking of than the Cimarron  It wasn't limited to GM either. The Lincoln Versailles was another. A Ford Granada with a hood that stayed up with springs instead of a prop rod.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Well, now that I think about all this again, can we REALLY blame Detroit for bein' caught with their freakin' pants down right after the Arab Oil Embargo of '73??? HUH?! Now can WE?! You're damned RIGHT we can!!!! The freakin' morons runnin' the show back then SHOULD HAVE FREAKIN' KNOWN that there was ALWAYS a market for smaller, well-made and more fuel-efficient cars...PERIOD! (...aaaah, but what say we just blame all THAT on the "bad ol' gov'ment" too, HUH?!...I mean wasn't THEM who started mandating cleaner cars at just about that time TOO?!...yeah, what say we blame them again!)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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Ford Pinto Bomb.
Chevy Vega.
AMC Gremlin (A more aptly named car has never existed).
These were Detroit's answer to the high quality vehicles being sold by Toyota, Datsun, and Mazda.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Hey Pastor! You're preachin' to the freakin' choir here, dude!
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Btw Pastor...err...Bill(sorry ), the Cimarron was a gussied-up Chevy Cavalier.
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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Yeah, that was it. The Chevy Cavalier was sold in Japan as the Toyota Cavalier later on. Think that's where my confusion came from (not from the tequila or advancing age I'm sure).
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Quote:
...Think that's where my confusion came from (not from the tequila or advancing age I'm sure).
Yeah...suuuuure.
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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In the 70, as I remember they were still pretty much all different but when the 80s hit (maybe late 70s) they were all the same with different trim packages. I remember Chrysler being even worse with the K cars. The 600, 300, Reliant, Aries, NYer, Caravelle , and probably some I can't remember were all the same car with different trim and header panel.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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Adjunct
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Adjunct
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Quote:
Well, now that I think about all this again, can we REALLY blame Detroit for bein' caught with their freakin' pants down right after the Arab Oil Embargo of '73???
HUH?! Now can WE?!
You're damned RIGHT we can!!!! The freakin' morons runnin' the show back then SHOULD HAVE FREAKIN' KNOWN that there was ALWAYS a market for smaller, well-made and more fuel-efficient cars...PERIOD!
(...aaaah, but what say we just blame all THAT on the "bad ol' gov'ment" too, HUH?!...I mean wasn't THEM who started mandating cleaner cars at just about that time TOO?!...yeah, what say we blame them again!)
Are you ranting about GM or Triumph?
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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New Tires
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New Tires
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At one point wasn't a Chevy Nova actually a rebadged Toyota Corolla?
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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I remember when they brought back the GTO, Nova, and LeMans and they were little roller skates.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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Adjunct
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American car company executives were definitely arrogant but that came because of success. They saw the other American car manufacturers as the only serious competition. Frankly in the 1960s anything coming from Japan was an unreliable joke...except the rust bucket Toyota Landcruiser which was a design completely funded by the U.S. government to help get post-WW2 Japan's manufacturing back on it's feet (it's pushrod straight-6 engine was a direct copy of GMs truck engine of the era.)
The path to defeat begins with underestimating the competition.
Ironically after WW2 and Japan's reconstruction (with much U.S. funding) the all-new factories in Japan were in better condition than most plants in the U.S. The plant that built my F-150 was built in 1925 and in continuous production through the depression and in WW2 was used to repair/maintain amphibious landing craft. Minor upgrades were done through the years but major renovation didn't begin until the 1980's.
American manufacturers built the cars that Americans wanted in those decades the numbers prove that. For unique fuel efficient cars VW's Beetle and a number of British sports cars were popular options for American car buyers.
The real question then is: Since Volkswagen and the British sports cars were well established and fuel efficient how did the Japanese take over that part of the market when the 1973 fuel crisis hit? Volkswagen especially was in the perfect position to capitalize and failed. American car companies were suddenly forced to try to quickly design and build little 4-cylinder economy cars which they had no experience with but the European's had been doing it for decades.
Add to the perfect storm the condition of the American economy in the mid 1970's, exactly when U.S. manufacturers needed to invest big money into all new and what they still considered low profit margin economy cars.
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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3/4 Throttle
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3/4 Throttle
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Quote:
At one point wasn't a Chevy Nova actually a rebadged Toyota Corolla?
GEO Prism's were Toyota Corolla's and when GEO's went away I believe it was rebadged as a Chevy Nova or something.
It was a shame I used to be a real Pontiac fanatic when they built their own cars and engines back in the 70's and had some pretty hot 68 & 70 GTO's and 69 and 70 Grand Prix's. Once they all started building the same cars with different badging and trim is when I switched to a Toyota fan. I think they should have got rid of Buick rather than Pontiac! 
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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I worked on this junk as a mechanic in a Chev/Old/Caddy dealership from 1972 to 1980 before I got into heavy equipment. The fellows I worked with could see the drop in quality as GM tried to bring in more fuel efficient cars. Uni rust bodies...plastic parts on brakes (yeah Chevy Vega)... Stamped steal starter motors....super thin metal on the body panel...Aluminum blocks with cast iron heads with gaskets that were garbage....removal of the 12 bolt differential....super cheap window transmission assemblies ...etc
We had Chev trucks that came to our dealership with GMC tailgates. We had decomposing lunches left in door panels on new vehicles. We found bolts dangling from strings strategically placed inside compartments that would rattle. Some even placed notes on them. Intake manifolds with the casting flash still in place blocking the flow of water. Water pumps with the same problems. Talk about no quality control. No wonder GM got into the predicament they were in.
I even had a fellow who worked for GM state that workers would grind the zinc coating away from the fender wells, lower door sills and fuel fill ports to cause owners to purchase new ones because the vehicles would rust in these places. Condoned by the union and management....
Having said all this, I have purchased some of the newer GM vehicles and they appear to be a lot better made than that junk I worked on in the late 70s.
12 Rocket Roadster
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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Adjunct
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Stories of assembly line sabotage are as old as the UAW. In all of my years I have seen only one personally and it was a non-union built brand new Toyota. Many years ago a woman called in and franticly stated her Corolla accelerated out of control (this was years before drive by wire systems) She managed to get it stopped by shifting to neutral and shutting the ignition off. She was only a few miles from the dealership so I grabbed a manager and drove to her. When I arrived she was looking at the car like it just tried to murder her and her young son...which it had. She said the traffic signal at the busy intersection changed so she accelerated quickly through when the pedal stayed on the floor. This was a mechanical cable operated accelerator on a brand new car. I didn't really believe her but she was definitely scared. I opened the hood and was surprised to see the throttle was jammed wide open. It took a lot of effort to break it free and close the throttle. I personally drove it back to the shop without incident because she would not go near the car. Found a small plastic cover for the wiper arm pivot nut jammed in the cruise control actuator, the actuator is covered by a plastic shroud so nothing can fall inside which means it had to be placed there before the cover was installed. Both of the wiper pivots on this car had their covers so this was an extra part jammed inside the housing for the cruise actuator throttle cable. The woman traded out of the car that day.
This is not hearsay I was directly involved.
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Quote:
Ford Pinto Bomb.
Chevy Vega.
AMC Gremlin (A more aptly named car has never existed).
I think at one point I drove all three of these vehicles for 3-6 months. At least when the Gremlin clutch linkage broke I could start it in first soft shift into the next gear up or down and just turn it off at the stop light. Try that with a car made in Japan or today here in N.A.
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Quote:
Quote:
Ford Pinto Bomb.
Chevy Vega.
AMC Gremlin (A more aptly named car has never existed).
I think at one point I drove all three of these vehicles for 3-6 months. At least when the Gremlin clutch linkage broke I could start it in first soft shift into the next gear up or down and just turn it off at the stop light. Try that with a car made in Japan or today here in N.A.
I forgot to mention I fixed that problem with a piece of threaded rod bent to 90 degrees and a few bolts.
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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Joined: Feb 2011
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Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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Quote:
Quote:
At one point wasn't a Chevy Nova actually a rebadged Toyota Corolla?
GEO Prism's were Toyota Corolla's and when GEO's went away I believe it was rebadged as a Chevy Nova or something.
It was a shame I used to be a real Pontiac fanatic when they built their own cars and engines back in the 70's and had some pretty hot 68 & 70 GTO's and 69 and 70 Grand Prix's. Once they all started building the same cars with different badging and trim is when I switched to a Toyota fan. I think they should have got rid of Buick rather than Pontiac!
Yeah, they ditch Pontiac and Saturn and keep BOTH Cadillac and Buick. They must have assumed the 70 year old guys that buy Buicks and Caddies will live forever.
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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Loquacious
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OP
Loquacious
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I should have posted a link to the Jalopnik article, but I was working off a Nook in a hotel room and I wasn't able to open two windows at once. Anyway, the article stated that Pontiac was making a comeback after years of admitted mismanagement and planned to stick with their own line of RWD platforms. I understand the Holden / G8 does real well. I also liked that El Camino-ish Holden that appeared to be on the way. It appeared that Pontiac was intent on forging a new path. The last Pontiac I had was a Grand Prix Brougham I bought back in 85 and though it had it's share of problems (clear coat, transmission and carburetor), once we got that sorted out, it was a fantastic car. As for Buick, that's always been a big seller in China. A market that GM covets. I wasn't trying to incite a political discussion, but this was the first I'd heard as to why Pontiac was dismantled. I've also always liked Bob Lutz's way of (sometimes) cutting through the corporate BS. Here's what's left of the original article; http://jalopnik.com/the-feds-killed-pontiac-bob-lutz-says-1452735716
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Quote:
I understand the Holden / G8 does real well. I also liked that El Camino-ish Holden that appeared to be on the way. It appeared that Pontiac was intent on forging a new path.
I know what ya mean here, Steve. A few years back and just a short while before GM announced Pontiac's demise, I was at the L.A. Car Show and Pontiac was showcasing one of those Holden "Utes" rebadged as sort of an undated "El Camino". I LOVED the idea, as I owned a '69 El Camino for many years and have always loved the concept of "a Muscle Car that could carry stuff".
And once GM did announce the closing down of the Pontiac brand, much of my sorrow was geared toward the idea that we would never see this idea brought to fruition.
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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Pontiac was murdered on April 20, 1769, at the French village of Cahokia (nearly opposite St. Louis, Missouri) by a Peoria Indian, perhaps in retaliation for an earlier attack by Pontiac.  demise indeed
Always remember to be yourself. Unless you suck. Then pretend to be someone else.
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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Adjunct
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Adjunct
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Well if Indian can come back from the dead (several times) maybe there's hope for Pontiac to zombie up!
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Wow! I had NO idea that Pontiac(the Indian chief) looked so much like Robert Mitchum!!!
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Quote:
Wow! I had NO idea that Pontiac(the Indian chief) looked so much like Robert Mitchum!!!
Dang Dwight, that was might first thought exactly! 
Kevin - Luceo Non Uro
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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Joined: Apr 2007
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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The demise of PONTIAC took place because of what it stood for. PONTIAC = Poor Old N-------(no racism implied) Thinks It's A Cadillac.
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69 BSA Firebird Scrambler
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Yeah, they ditch Pontiac and Saturn and keep BOTH Cadillac and Buick. They must have assumed the 70 year old guys that buy Buicks and Caddies will live forever.
LOL...I resemble that remark (not quite on the 70 yo part yet). I love my STS AWD...best vehicle I've ever owned, and I've owned prolly 20 or so including pickups, sports cars, economy cars, land yachts, the whole spectrum. Picked it up when it was 3 yo with 20K miles for about half of the original sticker (gotta love domestic depreciation)....smooth as silk and deceptively quick. Like it so much I picked up a 1 yo SRX for the lovely bride. Can't see not having one in the future especially when you can let someone else take the initial price hit.
Last edited by blackdog; 10/30/2013 7:51 PM.
"Despite all the amputation, you could dance to a rock 'n roll station..."
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Quote:
Yeah, they ditch Pontiac and Saturn and keep BOTH Cadillac and Buick. They must have assumed the 70 year old guys that buy Buicks and Caddies will live forever.
Buick Le Sabre trying to fit car into space in grocery store parking lot with a 5 part parking scheme. Old guy in hat, classic. There were about 50 open spaces within a 15 second walk of the one he was trying to manoever into but he needed to be as close to the door as possible even though....Yes that is why GM kept Buick and dropped Pontiac.
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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Quote:
Well if Indian can come back from the dead (several times) maybe there's hope for Pontiac to zombie up!
Maybe the same time Chrysler brings back Plymouth.
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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Adjunct
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Adjunct
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Quote:
Quote:
Well if Indian can come back from the dead (several times) maybe there's hope for Pontiac to zombie up!
Maybe the same time Chrysler brings back Plymouth.
Both brand names could be used on all-new very small economy cars specifically designed for the important India and S.E. Asia market!
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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Old Hand
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Old Hand
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Quote:
Pontiac was just rebadged Chevy anyway.
I liked Pontiac better when it was a de-stroked Oldsmobile.
Let's hope there's intelligent life somewhere in space 'cause it's buggar all down here. -- Monte Python
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Quote:
Quote:
Pontiac was just rebadged Chevy anyway.
I liked Pontiac better when it was a de-stroked Oldsmobile.
The Pontiacs I worked on had the same bell housing as Olds but the similarities stopped there. Well differentials, trannys, and front suspension but engines and body parts were different.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Pontiac was just rebadged Chevy anyway.
I liked Pontiac better when it was a de-stroked Oldsmobile.
The Pontiacs I worked on had the same bell housing as Olds but the similarities stopped there. Well differentials, trannys, and front suspension but engines and body parts were different.
Yeah, back in the day there were major differences. That started going away in the mid to late 70s
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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I want to see a new Buick Grand National built to take on the Camaro and Mustang. This was a bad mammajamma  This looks like a Toyota Camary should not even carry the name for a grand national. the 2014 BLAHHH  It doesnt even look as good as Audi or BMW and that seems like what they are trying for.
Mal: "Y'all see the man hanging out of the spaceship with the really big gun?{ref, Jayne} Man's lookin' to kill some folk. So really, it's his will y'all should worry about thwarting."
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Re: The demise of Pontiac
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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there is definitely a menacing look to those old Grand Nationals 
Always remember to be yourself. Unless you suck. Then pretend to be someone else.
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