 Harley-Davidson
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OP
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In 1981 H-D is purchased from AMF by 13 investors including Willie G. Davidson. H-D asks for import tariff protection for bikes over 700cc while the company restructured and developed their new Evolution engine. By 1987 H-D asked for the tariff to be terminated. By the way Honda and Kawasaki never complained about the tariff because they had factories in the U.S. building bikes over 700cc and enjoyed protection under the same tariff.
Today Harley-Davidson is an outstanding American success. If you don't like the bikes they build that's ok because millions of buyers world wide certainly do. Some joke H-D's huge apparel sales without recognizing its marketing genius. Riders don't buy new $20,000 bikes often but they do buy accessories, motorclothes, helmets etc frequently. Getting these riders back in the dealerships often increases motorcycle sales opportunities as well as revenue from accessory sales for both H-D and the locally owned dealership.
Why bring up this topic now?
Last sunday my wife and I took a local Triumph RAT ride but a few of my friends from work went their own way. Monday at work I found out they stopped at a Harley dealership about 40 miles away to look around. One of them traded his S&S powered custom chopper for a brand new Road Glide Custom and the other traded his Vulcan for an anniversary edition Ultra Limited!
Harley has a fanatical following of owners that other manufacturers envy and can't understand. Harley is a motorcycle company, unlike every Japanese manufacturer which motorcycles are only a small division of a much larger diverse parent company.
Not bad for a company that was on the brink of extinction at about the same time our favorite Triumph marque was in the same position.
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: Harley-Davidson
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
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I would say that about sums it all up in a nutshell, OB! Yep, your history lesson here sound pretty much spot-on to me. Funny what can happen to a motorcycle company when people who REALLY have motorcycling in the blood like Willie G. attain control of it after it's nearly run on the rocks by people who only know the difference between a freakin' bowling ball and a basketball, ain't it?! (...btw, have I ever mentioned that I'd LOVE to own a XR1200, which if I ever DO it would now have to be a used one, 'cause thanks to all the "Faithful" who wouldn't know a GOOD handling motorcycle from a freakin' basketball, H-D doesn't make it anymore...though yeah, they sure DO know how to make a lot of money caterin' to these kinda folks, don't they?!) 
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Harley-Davidson
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,026
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Jun 2006
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Triumph didnt need the govt to intervene and bail it out, they came back with investment and hard work. HD is here only because the govt punished consumers and other manufacturers(who were producing the high quality products and changed the marketplace with that quality), and now we see Indian coming back without the govt covering the effort, but the old fashioned way, with private investment and hard work.
Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and will never be.----Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Harley-Davidson
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Joined: Nov 2011
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OP
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Quote:
Triumph didnt need the govt to intervene and bail it out, they came back with investment and hard work. HD is here only because the govt punished consumers and other manufacturers(who were producing the high quality products and changed the marketplace with that quality), and now we see Indian coming back without the govt covering the effort, but the old fashioned way, with private investment and hard work.
Triumph went bankrupt and what was left was bought from the court. By October 1980 the British government wrote off 8.4 million pounds owed by Triumph, but still left the company owing 2 million to Britain's Export Credit Guarantee Dept. It was all over by 1983. For you to say Triumph "didn't need the government it intervene" is inacurate to put it mildly.
Like I said if other manufacturers wanted to avoid the over 700cc tariff of the early '80s all they had to do was build their bikes here in the U.S. which is what Honda and Kawasaki did.
Harley-Davidson and Triumph are true motorcycle companies that live or die on their bikes...they are not small insignificant divisions of huge companies like Kawasaki (and Indian will be).
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: Harley-Davidson
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Yet another moco sheeple trolling thread. It woud have been more accurate to say that hd lives or dies on the sales of there branded merchandise. Lord knows they go to the bank laughing al the way from getting the sheepe to pay good money to advertise the moco name. There marketing is certainly brilliant even if there bikes are less the brilliant.
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Re: Harley-Davidson
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Joined: Dec 2006
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New Tires
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New Tires
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Wikipedia
"Triumph Motorcycles Ltd is the largest UK motorcycle manufacturer; it was established in 1984 by John Bloor after the original company Triumph Engineering went into receivership. The new company (initially Bonneville Coventry Ltd) continued Triumph's record of motorcycle production since 1902. In the year to 30 June 2012, the company, which is the United Kingdom's largest motorcycle manufacturer, produced 49,000 motorcycles and employed 1,600 staff.[1]
Last edited by MACMC; 04/26/2013 7:24 AM.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Harley-Davidson
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Joined: Jul 2007
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
Joined: Jul 2007
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Both Triumph motorcycles and Triumph cars (Both of which I own and love) were largely driven into the ground by poor, shortsighted management. My opinion, but feel free to correct me, outerbanks.
Fidelis et Fortis
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Re: Harley-Davidson
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Joined: Jan 2006
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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So what is the difference between a diversified company and a bike only company. HD and Triumph used to be diversified. Does that mean a 37 Speed Twin is not worth having because they made cars too? Does somehow being diversified make the product less of a product?
In the area of Victory and Honda they are made by a company that makes motors and motor driven vehicles. The operative word in Motorcycle is Motor.
I don't get the difference.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Harley-Davidson
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Joined: Apr 2006
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Quote:
I don't get the difference.
Same here.
I guess Chevrolet doesn't count as a car manufacturer since it's a division of General Motors.
Kevin - Luceo Non Uro
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Re: Harley-Davidson
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Joined: Dec 2006
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New Tires
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New Tires
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Quote:
Quote:
I don't get the difference.
Same here.
I guess Chevrolet doesn't count as a car manufacturer since it's a division of General Motors.
In GMs case you might have a point. 
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Harley-Davidson
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
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New Tires
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Quote:
Both Triumph motorcycles and Triumph cars (Both of which I own and love) were largely driven into the ground by poor, shortsighted management. My opinion, but feel free to correct me, outerbanks.
There was more than poor management, there was government involvement with both finance and management, there was a very militant union, there was extreme and sudden competition in the MC market by Japan. All it took in the end was a change in regime of a Prime Minister and the plug was pulled.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Harley-Davidson
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
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Before this Harley-Davidson thread totally veers off into a discussion of the How's and Why's of Triumph's collapse and rebirth, I'd like to address somethin' you've said in it here, Michael.... Quote:
Yet another moco sheeple trolling thread. It woud have been more accurate to say that hd lives or dies on the sales of there branded merchandise. Lord knows they go to the bank laughing al the way from getting the sheepe to pay good money to advertise the moco name. There marketing is certainly brilliant even if there bikes are less the brilliant.
...and that would be to ask why your immediate response seemed so "defensive" in tone? Yep, right from the get-go you labeled OP's thread as a "trolling" one, as if you think any mention of this company which DOES produce some very fine motorcycles, though yes admittedly only one type of motorcycle, "Criusers", but still for what they're primarily designed to do they do pretty darn well while looking the part, is somehow an apparent "offense".
Now, you may disagree with my assessment of The Motor Company's product, but why did you feel the need to come out with guns a blazing at just the mention of their name? Remember, the title of this forum's section is "Other Bikes", and thus OP's thread IS appropriate placed at this Triumph website, right?!
And, while you and I and many motorcyclists know that many purchasers of H-D's products are "blinded" by their "mystique"(read: R.U.B. here) and thus buy their H-D primarily for some sort of "associative factor"(read: they think they're buying into some kind of "cool" thing) I will never understand why this sort of "knee-jerk" reaction seems to come about whenever their name is mentioned around here.
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Harley-Davidson
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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and let us not forget the AMF yrs. another reason the motor co. is still alive today and it was amf that did the R&D for the evo engine and was just about to be released when Willy and the boys bought it back. also lets not forget hd is a public co. and companies like Triumph are privetly held. 
ENJOY!!!!! NEWT!!!!!
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Re: Harley-Davidson
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Oh dwight  guns blazing? Offended? Naw. Just getting my thoughts on the subject out there is all. Not that I feel any need to defend my thoughts . You are now as you always have been,,,,full of yourself 
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Re: Harley-Davidson
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Oh, well then, please allow me to express my apologies for "being so full of myself" as to have the temerity to ask for an explanation as to why you basically called OB a "troll". And so I'll take it upon myself(and which we all know I'm "full of") to accept the idea that you have no reasonable explanation as to why you "feel the way you do". (...yep, talk about somebody bein' "too full of themselves", huh?!...yep, ya gotta love the ol' "That's my opinion and so I don't need to defend it logically" tact...uh huh, there's no "bein' full of one's self" usin' THAT kind of manner at all, IS there!) 
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Harley-Davidson
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,695 Likes: 22
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Quote:
Oh dwight guns blazing? Offended? Naw. Just getting my thoughts on the subject out there is all. Not that I feel any need to defend my thoughts . You are now as you always have been,,,,full of yourself
This is the same guy that rides a Thaiumph and tells BA owners his is a garage queen because the Tiger is so much better. He then makes fun of a Honda VTX purchase thus insulting a member with this:
"I suppose he had enough of the lean beef and decided that some RICE was in order"
That same guy then insults all Harley owners by saying Harley's biggest clones are their riders.
If everything Japan makes sucks and everything Harley makes sucks, I am sure you hate Victory because they are made by a conglomerate. Hmmm.
I remember an old saying that if you meet an A-hole in your travels he probably was. If everyone you meet is an A-hole they probably were actually meeting their daily A-hole instead.
I used to to think I was an intolerant, self absorbed, know it all. I don't even come close to this member!
Even though I still am one.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Harley-Davidson
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,297
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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Posts: 2,297 |
Quote:
I would say that about sums it all up in a nutshell, OB! Yep, your history lesson here sound pretty much spot-on to me.
Funny what can happen to a motorcycle company when people who REALLY have motorcycling in the blood like Willie G. attain control of it after it's nearly run on the rocks by people who only know the difference between a freakin' bowling ball and a basketball, ain't it?!
(...btw, have I ever mentioned that I'd LOVE to own a XR1200, which if I ever DO it would now have to be a used one, 'cause thanks to all the "Faithful" who wouldn't know a GOOD handling motorcycle from a freakin' basketball, H-D doesn't make it anymore...though yeah, they sure DO know how to make a lot of money caterin' to these kinda folks, don't they?!)
Hey, I saw the XR1200 first, and got crucified for it. BTW, it still rocks. 
In Between the Dark and the Light..
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Re: Harley-Davidson
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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 Now Ron, don't ya think you're being just a little hard on Michael here? I mean you have to remember that it was I(you know, the guy who's so "full of himself") who had the unfortunate memory lapse of forgetting that Michael is often prone to forego any semblance of a rational and reasonable and in-depth reply when his opinion is challenged. 'Cause ya know, only people who are "full of themselves" respond in such a manner. Yep, as I'm sure you really know, those people who just go on and on and on explaining their opinions are the TRUE egocentric souls in the world, NOT the "forthright and matter-of-fact" type! (...yes, I'm sorry to say your "intolerance" WAS indeed showing here, sir!)  
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Harley-Davidson
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Joined: Nov 2011
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Adjunct
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OP
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Thanks Dwight. Yes, I'm clearly a troll since I bought a brand new Triumph America, enjoy riding it and check in around here occasionally. I guess since 6 months after buying the Triumph I custom ordered my wife the new Harley-Davidson Sportster she wanted I became a "moco sheeple." I'm certain he would be more respectful if we were talking face to face.
Those that don't understand the difference between a huge diversified company and a bike only company should consider when Triumph wants to produce a new bike like the Trophy SE for example all of the financial and engineering resources come from Triumph. Compare to Kawasaki Heavy Industries for example which is a monster that builds everything from ships to railroad stock to aerospace and industural equipment. If allowed Kawasaki could give away bikes at a huge loss for years until they drove small bike only companies out of business.
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: Harley-Davidson
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
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Yep OB, I thought your point about lone product motorcycle companies vs large and diversified companies which also produce motorcycle was an interesting thought to bring up, and thought it a shame that a particular a-ho..err..gentleman used your thread to go on an anti-Harley rant, which he THEN in addition failed to supply any corroborating facts in order to support his rant's contention.
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Harley-Davidson
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Joined: Jan 2006
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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OB in a big multi-product corporation that board will not allow mixing of money. They answer to the investors. The motorcycle division has a budget. They don't make money people start losing jobs in high positions. I believe there is a lot less money available there than with Mr. Bloor who answers to nobody.
There are no bad motorcycles. All motorcycles are better than cars. If you accept that then all motorcycles are good, some just better than others. Even a Ural is a ton of fun to ride.
I think when we get branded to the point of unpleasant when it comes to other taste in bikes the image of all biking starts to be drug down.
If you are on two wheels you are my friend. If you love riding and can't wait to get back out into the wind, you get it. I will ride with you no matter what you ride. Both of us are enjoying the freedom doing what we like to do.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Harley-Davidson
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Joined: Nov 2011
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Adjunct
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OP
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Quote:
OB in a big multi-product corporation that board will not allow mixing of money. They answer to the investors. The motorcycle division has a budget. They don't make money people start losing jobs in high positions.
Happens all the time. Example: In 1989 a strong Ford Motor Company purchased a struggling Jaguar Motor Co. Jaguar had at the time an old product line, outdated plants and no capital to engineer new product. Ford poured cash, technical resources and modernized production facilities machine tooling etc into the small luxury car company. Ford owned Jaguar for 19 years and never made a profit with the brand. Not such a big deal...until the economy turned real bad and Ford could no longer waste resources on the PAG. Fortunately they sold off those bad idea luxury brands Jaguar, Aston Martin, Rover and Volvo.
Back to bikes. Someone mentioned the new Indian Motorcycle to be launched later this year. This will be interesting since for the first time a strong parent company with resources (financial and technical) will be backing the brand...something the previous 2 attempts did not have. Indian will have enough start-up capital to "do it right" their all-new engines (not S&S crate motors) are an example, and they aren't starting out in debt needing to make fast profit. They have the financial cushion of a strong diverse parent company.
Last edited by outerbanks; 04/27/2013 3:45 AM.
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: Harley-Davidson
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 688
Adjunct
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OP
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Quote:
If you are on two wheels you are my friend. If you love riding and can't wait to get back out into the wind, you get it. I will ride with you no matter what you ride. Both of us are enjoying the freedom doing what we like to do.
Agreed! 
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: Harley-Davidson
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Joined: Nov 2011
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OP
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Quote:
Funny what can happen to a motorcycle company when people who REALLY have motorcycling in the blood like Willie G. attain control of it after it's nearly run on the rocks by people who only know the difference between a freakin' bowling ball and a basketball, ain't it?!
True. I don't know how anyone can give credit to AMF in regards to Harley-Davidson. People claim design began for the Evolution engine while AMF owned the company but AMF did not follow through. They owned H-D for 12 years and the fact is they bought the brand, immediately cut the work force and the quality of the bikes to reduce cost for quick profit bargin. AMF had the money to invest in modernizing the company and improving quality but they ran H-D's reputation down instead. 12 years is more than enough time to bring all-new modern engines to market but the fact is H-D was still running the shovelhead and ironhead engines in '81 that they were when AMF bought it in 1969.
In Harley's case a few motorcycle enthusiasts buying the brand for a mere $80 million of borrowed money and time was the best thing that could have happened.
In 1981 the Japanese were not building many V-twin Harley copies...but they all do now!
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: Harley-Davidson
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Joined: Dec 2006
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New Tires
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New Tires
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Bloor answers to his creditors, banks and the marketplace, he's not a Koch brother, although they to a lesser degree do the same. FYI, the HD purchase of $80 million in 1981 is worth over $202 Million in today's dollars, that's scary, but not as scary as the fact that the prime interest rate in 1981 was over 20%. Those guys had some balls.
Last edited by MACMC; 04/27/2013 10:34 AM.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Harley-Davidson
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 16
Complete Newb
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Complete Newb
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I enjoy the history of the bikes and don't really understand the animosity to other bikes wares by some posters. We all make choices with our dollars. Most here have obviously bought Triumphs. I just like bikes, all kinds. In my mind there are currently 3 with the tradition and history that appeal to me. I own the first 2, Triumph and Harley Davidson and would like the third someday, BMW. I just can't figure out how on my salalry as well as what the BMW would do better for me than my other 2. I've thought maybe a real tourer but when looking at passenger comfort I don't believe that there is really anything out there that really beats the Gold Wing or an Ultra.
A Harley Heritage, a Triumph America, a good Irish Whiskey and cigar. As close to Heaven on earth as I can get.
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Re: Harley-Davidson
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
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Hardley and Triumph owners have always had a tongue in cheek rivalry. It's poking fun at each other in most cases. You get the jerks that will knock anything except what they have and mean what they say but generally it's all in fun.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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