 Re: Dragon Crash
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Re: Dragon Crash
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Re: Dragon Crash
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Is it just me or is the photographer somewhat liable? It is peoples instinctual response to wave when a camera is shoved at them and I wonder if this whole thing wouldn't have happened if he wasn't there snapping off shots like this. Does anyone know if he has to get a permit/permission to operate this service on a public road? Can he just simply snap pictures and sell them regardless if people agree to or not? Is it just me or does anyone else find that idea odd?
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Re: Dragon Crash
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Ya know, that's a good question here Matt...and a thought which I'll bet Alec Baldwin, Russell Crowe AND a few other celebs who often attempt to make the Paparazzi eat their cameras might agree with ya on!  BUT remember, nobody forced the guy to smile and wave...WHICH come to THINK of it, MIGHT BE a better tactic for Messrs Baldwin, Crowe AND the like to emulate from now on IF they wanna start steerin' clear of bad press!!!  (...that is if THEY'RE not ridin' a motorcycle at the time, of course!!!)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Dragon Crash
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I am by no means trying to crush free enterprise and I imagine there is a demand for a product like this from a lot of people (just guessing because I haven't been there yet to do this ride). But this is more than a deer running across the road or some fallen overgrowth. This is a distraction...someone intentionally standing on the road for a specific purpose. I don't know...I actually like the idea of the service the photographer is providing ( I know I am contradicting myself) but I do see the photographer as having a level of involvement in this. Who knows...maybe he has to have insurance in order to be there and this is a non-issue. Does anyone know?
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Re: Dragon Crash
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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I seriously doubt the photographers carry "Doofus Rider/Driver Coverage", Matt!  Nope, in fact I'll bet IF one of 'em ever gets sued over a thing like this, most of 'em would probably consider it not worth the potential legal problems which could afterward arise.
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Dragon Crash
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I seriously doubt the photographers carry "Doofus Rider/Driver Coverage", Matt!
I doubt that as well  I wouldn't be surprised though if the state made him carry something though. Would be interesting to hear if anyone knows about this
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Re: Dragon Crash
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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I would guess maybe a professional photographer, an insurance underwriter OR an ambulance chase...err...I mean LAWYER might know the answer to this. (...all three I'm NOT, btw!)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Dragon Crash
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Quote:
Quote:
The guy in the vette is the real victim. Just minding his own business. I have no problem being hard on the rider because he is on T-bird. The stupid ass wasn't taking care of business. You don't ham it up for the camera on a freakin curve. The bird is heavy to begin with and if you don't pay attention it will get away from you. I've over shot curves many times and I WAS paying attention. 
A good push on the right handlebar would have taken care of the problem. He had the time and the space but didn't do the right thing. It's as if he saw the vette and then drove right into it (he probably did). The proper response needs to be practiced until it's automatic, almost muscle memory. He obviously was thinking about what to do rather than doing it. Counter steer is counter intuitive, it needs to be practiced until it is done without thinking. I once rode a Honda 350 into a farm field at over 50 MPH by turning the handlebars one way and the bike going the other. Think, practice, think, practice as if your life depends upon it, because it does.
+1 and that is why I really think all riders should learn to0 ride in the dirt first, those moves that save your live become reflex rather than thought.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Dragon Crash
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Fe Butt
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I know what you and Larry are sayin' about the whole countersteering thing here, Ian. However, I doubt the guy's ability and/or his inability to countersteer was the guy's primary failure here at that most critical time.
Nope, ya see, if you look at picture number-10 in this sequence, what I think the guy did was to freak out when he started scraping the T-Bird's frame and other hard parts while he was really leaned over. I think he became afraid he was going to low-side his bike, which from that particular picture number 10 looked at that point to be a very likely possibility, especially if he tried to countersteer any further at that point in time.
And so, I'll bet his thinking was to right the bike, which of course straightened his line directly across the road's centerline and into that poor Corvette.
(...nope, once again, I'll bet the guy DOES know how to countersteer a motorcycle, but he was freaked out about low-siding his bike when he heard and felt that scraping...and remember, one can ONLY countersteer ANY motorcycle to a certain point depending upon its ground-clearance, and then all bets are off)
Last edited by Dwight; 10/20/2012 10:11 PM.
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Dragon Crash
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I agree Dwight - the very first and most important thing to do in a stressful situation is to keep a calm mind and analyze the best course of action which needs to be done in a moment. I am not sure if that can be taught or not. I have seen some very good riders perform some FUGLY wrecks because of that simple fact.
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Re: Dragon Crash
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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we should do this every weekend!
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Re: Dragon Crash
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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It is interesting about the photographer. I would think the state has a highway law about causing an unreasonable distraction. Most do have that law it is just rarely enforced.
The guy on the bike would have no cause of action though. In almost all states they have a not greater than doctrine for liability. That means if the injured party is more than 50% responsible for his injury he is barred from recovery from the other liable person. So even if the photographer contributed to his dumb move he didn't even get close to being the proximate cause of the crash.
Had he killed or seriously hurt a passenger that would be different. The passenger could collect from both negligent parties to their proportionate share of the liability.
Now back to the good part, yep the guy that owns that Vette should be major pissed.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Dragon Crash
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Fe Butt
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Yep, like I was sayin', maybe an insurance underwriter(or claims adjuster ) might know! (...btw Ron, glad to hear your son is gettin' better and better!) 
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Dragon Crash
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Loquacious
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Quote:
I am by no means trying to crush free enterprise and I imagine there is a demand for a product like this from a lot of people (just guessing because I haven't been there yet to do this ride). But this is more than a deer running across the road or some fallen overgrowth. This is a distraction...someone intentionally standing on the road for a specific purpose. I don't know...I actually like the idea of the service the photographer is providing ( I know I am contradicting myself) but I do see the photographer as having a level of involvement in this. Who knows...maybe he has to have insurance in order to be there and this is a non-issue. Does anyone know?
Havving ridden the Dragon 3 times, I respectfully disagree about the level of distraction.
If a rider is so distracted by a man sitting under a roadside canopy with a camera, they have no chance on a road with more real-life distractions and should look for another form of transportation. 
Kevin - Luceo Non Uro
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Re: Dragon Crash
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Worn Saddle
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Having ridden the Dragon 3 times, I respectfully disagree about the level of distraction.
If a rider is so distracted by a man sitting under a roadside canopy with a camera, they have no chance on a road with more real-life distractions and should look for another form of transportation.
He did it to himself. He carried too much speed into the corner, woke up late, got close to being on the hard parts and stood himself up when he got on the brakes. Game over.
I wave at riders deep into corners all of the time but only after I've set my line. Deal's Gap, Wolf Pen Gap, Blood Mountain, Little River Canyon...they're all the same; they demand your attention and your respect. Target fixation on something or someone on the shoulder will bite you every time, doesn't matter if it's a pretty girl or a snap shooter.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Dragon Crash
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Learned Hand
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Why do we Americans find it so difficult to accept fault? Are we to proud to accept our human imperfection, or, has our legal system trained us to look for someone else to either foot the bill or share it? The same result would have happened if he’d become over enthralled at a sunset, sunrise, or a bluebird on a branch. Let’s just consider one of those meaningless ‘biker waves’ from a passing cyclist prompted a return wave and a momentary loss of concentration. Would we be inclined to think that biker wave was responsible? The photographer is no more responsible than any other man-made or natural distraction.
This guy messed up. His head wasn’t in the game at the precise moment it needed to be. We all mess up. Often we get through it without ever having a consequence – most frequently, not even realizing how close we were to harm. Sometimes we’re lucky enough to learn from it. On this particular occasion, this person messed up at that exact point in time when not erring was most critical - that very instance in which good sense, karma, luck, kismet, and every other thing that saves us when our heads aren’t there to save us. Hopefully, he’s OK and he’s learned from this one. Ultimately, it would be great if we all did.
2004 Triumph Speedmaster (J Lo) 2006 Yamaha Stratoliner (Adele)
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Re: Dragon Crash
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Worn Saddle
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The sad thing is he had enough space to save it but getting on the brakes doomed him.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Dragon Crash
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Yep, like I was sayin', maybe an insurance underwriter(or claims adjuster ) might know!
(...btw Ron, glad to hear your son is gettin' better and better!)
Thank you, he is still too scrambled to work but in his apartment again. He is 90% back on the head injury.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Dragon Crash
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Quote:
Why do we Americans find it so difficult to accept fault? Are we to proud to accept our human imperfection, or, has our legal system trained us to look for someone else to either foot the bill or share it? The same result would have happened if he’d become over enthralled at a sunset, sunrise, or a bluebird on a branch. Let’s just consider one of those meaningless ‘biker waves’ from a passing cyclist prompted a return wave and a momentary loss of concentration. Would we be inclined to think that biker wave was responsible? The photographer is no more responsible than any other man-made or natural distraction.
This guy messed up. His head wasn’t in the game at the precise moment it needed to be. We all mess up. Often we get through it without ever having a consequence – most frequently, not even realizing how close we were to harm. Sometimes we’re lucky enough to learn from it. On this particular occasion, this person messed up at that exact point in time when not erring was most critical - that very instance in which good sense, karma, luck, kismet, and every other thing that saves us when our heads aren’t there to save us. Hopefully, he’s OK and he’s learned from this one. Ultimately, it would be great if we all did.
In the motorcycle world I will also say there are folks that no matter how long they ride they simply do not have a talent for it. For some it never becomes 2nd nature. For some they really don't belong on two wheels. Like this case. I hope for his safety he does not buy another bike.
I have always said I want to be at fault in any accident. It seems that the person that was at fault always has no injury or minor injury. The person not at fault has very serious soft tissue non-specific back and neck injury needing a Chiropractor and a lawyer. There must be something scientific about that
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Dragon Crash
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Target fixation, and most likely cruising along in the wrong gear. Boys, keep the rpm’s high and stay in a low gear when tackling the twisties. I do hope the gentlemen was ok.
thats exactly what happened, along with brakin' which stood the bike up instead of having confidence and laying her on over to make it around the curve.
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Re: Dragon Crash
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Only pose on the straight bits! Now if he'd have been on an America or Speedy he could have just dropped it a bit more to the right and been on his way! Shame about the bike. 
I'd rather ride it than clean it!!!!
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Re: Dragon Crash
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Dwight I wasn't speaking of this incident as far as the counter steering goes just that in many instances riding in the dirt first can save your butt later. I too think he paniced and simply stood the bike up rather than hold the line he had going.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Dragon Crash
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Loquacious
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But IF ya CAN'T save it, sometimes it's better to go OVER than slide UNDER! 
And you may see me tonight
With an illegal smile
J. Prine
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Re: Dragon Crash
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Loquacious
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Re: Dragon Crash
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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Is it just me or is the photographer somewhat liable? ...
A huge, emphatic, resounding, NO! If you want to wave at a camera then Darwin Award time it is. Might as well blame the back seat of the T-bird riders parents car. Say 57 years ago or so? What part of 'keep your eyes on the road' did the photgrapher overrule? Exactly, that pleasure is with the rider.
Blowing gravel off rural roads
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Re: Dragon Crash
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Unless you're riding a Vision!
The tipover protectors saved our skin sliding down the road last month.
We rode it out with only a slightly scuffed boot toe. The bike took a beating for us.
I just hate hearing about sprawls ... glad you made it uninjured.
Bedouin.
Blessed are those eyes that have seen more roads than any man! (Homer).
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Re: Dragon Crash
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Loquacious
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I just hate hearing about sprawls ... glad you made it uninjured.
Thanks, and glad to hear you made it through your scary bout with Peritonitis.
We realize we were really, really lucky sliding down a very slick road on the Vision tipovers. I was a little shaken afterwards but my wife was raving about how the Vision is a life saver. We taped the broken bits up and rode home 200 miles on the slab at... highway speed. 
Bottom line, it's never fun going down when on 2 wheels. RIDE SAFE!
Kevin - Luceo Non Uro
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Re: Dragon Crash
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When in doubt, push harder.
I've yet to be at the Dragon and not see a motorcycle accident or two. People also tend to show off in front of the photographers, goosing the throttle and not paying attention.
The good thing about the Dragon is you typically aren't going fast unless you're on a sport bike. The bad thing is, there's usually oncoming traffic anymore, and there's no room for errors.
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Re: Dragon Crash
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Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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The front wheel just kinda de-spoked, didn't it?
JB
"Long live the Duck Force!"
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Re: Dragon Crash
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The front wheel just kinda de-spoked, didn't it?
yup.
 
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Re: Dragon Crash
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Boy...Lots of arm chair Dragon Slayers around here...Shouda, woulda, coulda, huh, That was hard to watch...just hope he made it. Man, 1 second of dumb assery (and we all have them) can bite the hell out of you.
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Re: Dragon Crash
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"target fixation" I think sums it up. I did the same thing on my first crash. "I'm not going to drive into that sandy shoulder that I'm staring at. I'm not going to drive into that sandy shoulder that I'm staring at." oh-oh, here comes that sandy shoulder that I'm staring at.
Last edited by eprunier; 10/25/2012 1:06 AM.
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Re: Dragon Crash
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Quote:
Boy...Lots of arm chair Dragon Slayers around here...Shouda, woulda, coulda, huh, That was hard to watch...just hope he made it. Man, 1 second of dumb assery (and we all have them) can bite the hell out of you.
Good point. There's a parallel discussion going on at the "other" Triumph site.
The number of clowns that have never been near the Dragon, but have an opinion about it, is remarkable. 
Kevin - Luceo Non Uro
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Re: Dragon Crash
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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Not difficult to figure that public access to 18 miles with 318 turns will be fraught with perils. That said, we all have similar roads (or have ridden on them) thus the apparent armchair syndrome. A Newbie normal, or is that abby normal?, would generally not be so audacious. (come-on, the Guy was waving after all) 
Blowing gravel off rural roads
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 Re: Dragon Crash
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the real tragedy about all this...from that other site... http://www.triumphrat.net/2400939-post63.htmlQuote:
10-19-2012, 08:02 PM #63 (permalink)
CCRIDER72
Member
Quote:
You know there's even more to this story than this one crash. It seems fluids were left on the road after the crash and a very fast local rider (63 year old grandpa, I'm not joking he's probably the best rider at the Gap!) that rides a GSXR 750 crashed from the fluids and was sent down the mountain with very serious injuries. the injuries included:
Fractured skull around orbital area
Missing top 4 teeth
Lip split up to nose
Broken neck
Broken back
2 collapsed lungs
Multiple ribs broken on both sides
Lacerated liver
Busted up kidney
Heavy bruising on right side
Keep in mind he was wearing ALL the gear! (One piece leathers, full face etc) I imagine he would not be here now otherwise. The Dragon is no joke folks.
His name is Jeff so say a prayer or 2 for his speedy recovery. I've met him a few times and he is a super nice guy that just loves riding. He is an X-racer from the 80s and from what I've heard he was a pretty good racer. A few more well wishes and prayers for him sure can't hurt!
Hope that guy makes it thru.
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Re: Dragon Crash
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Quote:
Not difficult to figure that public access to 18 miles with 318 turns will be fraught with perils. That said, we all have similar roads (or have ridden on them) thus the apparent armchair syndrome. A Newbie normal, or is that abby normal?, would generally not be so audacious. (come-on, the Guy was waving after all)
Moe, I respectfully disagree about the "similar roads".
IMHO The Dragon, and many other roads in east TN and western NC, are far more challenging than the average rider is used to.
For those that haven't ridden the Dragon, it can be done at a leisurely pace without danger. But it is a relentless 11 mile stretch of twists and turns that requires 100% focus and concentration. And that doesn't include all the roads to get to and from the Dragon!
The Dragon is not my favorite road, and it's not even close to being the best road. There are better roads in that area that I try to keep under my hat so they don't turn into The Dragon.
Kevin - Luceo Non Uro
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Re: Dragon Crash
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The key words in this post are "very fast". I don't care how good or experienced a rider you are. If you come hot into a blind turn only to find a road hazard that you can't overcome, your day is over. To incur the sort of injuries this chap experienced, he may have been carrying some speed. I wish him a full and speedy recovery. Folks, pleae ride safe. Quote:
the real tragedy about all this...from that other site...
http://www.triumphrat.net/2400939-post63.html
Quote:
10-19-2012, 08:02 PM #63 (permalink)
CCRIDER72
Member
Quote:
You know there's even more to this story than this one crash. It seems fluids were left on the road after the crash and a very fast local rider (63 year old grandpa, I'm not joking he's probably the best rider at the Gap!) that rides a GSXR 750 crashed from the fluids and was sent down the mountain with very serious injuries. the injuries included:
Fractured skull around orbital area
Missing top 4 teeth
Lip split up to nose
Broken neck
Broken back
2 collapsed lungs
Multiple ribs broken on both sides
Lacerated liver
Busted up kidney
Heavy bruising on right side
Keep in mind he was wearing ALL the gear! (One piece leathers, full face etc) I imagine he would not be here now otherwise. The Dragon is no joke folks.
His name is Jeff so say a prayer or 2 for his speedy recovery. I've met him a few times and he is a super nice guy that just loves riding. He is an X-racer from the 80s and from what I've heard he was a pretty good racer. A few more well wishes and prayers for him sure can't hurt!
Hope that guy makes it thru.
Kevin - Luceo Non Uro
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Re: Dragon Crash
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Posts: 7,694 Likes: 22 |
The Vette driver talks about the cleanup on another forum.
"I'm NolaVette from New Orleans (Gretna) Louisiana. I'm the guy driving the red Vette that collided with the Triumph cruiser on Tuesday the 16th at about noon. I heard about the discussions on this forum concerning the accident your friend, Jeff Had in the same spot as my incident. First of all I hope he's eventually OK. This is chain of events immediately after the collision between me (Corvette) and Ron (Triumph cruiser). The photographer who shot the photos asked a passing motorist to call the troopers and also wreckers for the vehicles. There is no cell phone service up on the mountain. About an hour later the trooper arrived and began his investigation. He listened to our verbal accounts and also looked at the same photos you've all seen. A single wrecker arrived from Blount Wrecker Services to retrieve the motorcycle only, which meant there was no wrecker for my Vette. Trooper called on his radio to have another one sent up from a different company. Once the 2 guys from Blount had the motorcycle tied down on their truck they proceeded to clean up the oil spill. They used a shovel to dig dirt from the roadcut to spread onto the oil on the road. They took a fairly long time to do this whil I waited for my wrecker to arrive. After about 10-15 minutes working the dirt into the oils pill the trooper walked over to them and talked with thema bit and then they wrapped up the cleaning and left the scene. I did not see them use anything other than dirt and I have no idea if this is standard procedure. Before the first truck arrived I was very worried about motorcycles driving over that oil spot and we were trying to get them to slow down as they passed over it because I knew it had to very slippery. I wanted let everyone know what I saw and also to let everyone know that the wrecker service that picked up my Vette had not even arrived until after the oil cleaning process had taken place and the trooper spoke with the Blount truck crew. I don't even want to name the Wrecker service that picked up my car to avoid any confusion which happens easily on these forums. I hope that helps. I had a couple of feet to spare on the right side. I was watching him the whole time wondering when he was gonna finally whip the damn thing back onto his side of the road. Then the airbag popped me in the face."
Seems like they tried to get the oil cleaned up. I read a lot of folks being critical of the road cleaning efforts around the web.
I would have to say that the state is not running a race track attraction. The road has speed limits and road curve warning signs. It is unreasonable that an experienced road racer (hope he recovers) runs off or skids off a road at the posted speed limit of 30MPH. Last year at least the tail was 30 I think.
These types of behaviors carry risks. If we are zipping down the mountain at 100 do we have a complaint that the guy zipping up the mountain at 100 takes a wide apex and kills us?
Apparently this victim was very talented in the area of road racing. Did oil put him down the mountain? Would a stick, flat tire, or a spilled beer, a raccoon have done the same thing? Speed put him over the edge. The inherent danger of biking put him in the hospital. At his age and miles driven on the chicken strips, the law of averages put him down.
I have driven mountains right on the edge of death as have many of us. The assumption of risk and pushing that risk is the rush. The question is when will we push it too hard or when will something else not be part of our game plan.
Your car is more comfortable than your bike. Why do we go riding? Why get hot or cold leaving a climate controlled car or truck in the driveway? For the thrill of it would be my answer. The danger or perception of danger is the key ingredient of the thrill.
Drive safe
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Dragon Crash
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,518 Likes: 32
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,518 Likes: 32 |
Quote:
That said, we all have similar roads (or have ridden on them) thus the apparent armchair syndrome.
Precisely, this country is full of similar stretches of road, some stretching way beyond 11 miles.
We normally call them the "curse" or similar names.
Quote:
(come-on, the Guy was waving after all)
Precisely! (again )
He was waiving enthusiastically and then fu .. fu .. fumbled the turn .
Simple.
Bedouin.
Blessed are those eyes that have seen more roads than any man! (Homer).
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