 road building advice
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Joined: Jul 2007
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Worn Saddle
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OP
Worn Saddle
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,060 Likes: 6 |
So, my son is working on our "old" dirt road, which leads up to our homes. It is a secondary road which we are improving, and is composed of mostly clay, with no gravel yet. My son has sought "advice" from a distant relative of ours about how to do some things to improve it. His advice on drainage is to "dig a trench down one side, line it with tar paper and fill that in with large rock, 3" or so. Here's the thing. This distant "cousins husband" is a bit of a know it all and general blowhard. I've seen, and had to work after, his "expert" concrete work, carpenty and floor covering work, and I can tell you it ain't pretty. He has been working in some construction work for a year or less now, and he is now the "expert" in all things related to dirt work.
I've never heard of this technique of "tar paper underlayment", and it sounds stupid to me, for various reasons. However, I'm not a know-it-all and am willing to be corrected or educated. Anybody on here with experience in construction ever heard of this? Honestly, I'd like someone with years of experience to chime in here and tell me to tell him he's an idiot, but I'll bow to his "superior" experience if someone on here can tell me I'm wrong.
Fidelis et Fortis
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Re: road building advice
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
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New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
First, I've never built a road, but I've seen it done. I once worked for a construction equipment manufacture that made a mobile hammer mill. On the demos, the county would collect rock out of a near by creeks, stack it in a windrow down the middle of an old dirt road, pull the mill over it and gravel came out the back as it when along. Spread the gravel and oil it. The oil keeps dust down and helps compacting the gravel as autos drive over it.
I have done gravel driveways and parking lots. Use a front loader to get a grade on the roadway, spread about an inch and a half of gravel, your done, the weight of the autos will compact the roadway. Over time, regrade and gravel as needed.
I don't know the lay of the land, but most ditch both or just the up hill side of the roadway. Never heard the tar paper thing.
Last edited by MACMC; 07/08/2012 11:03 PM.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: road building advice
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 5,720
Check Pants
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Check Pants
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 5,720 |
Quote:
So, my son is working on our "old" dirt road, which leads up to our homes. It is a secondary road which we are improving, and is composed of mostly clay, with no gravel yet. My son has sought "advice" from a distant relative of ours about how to do some things to improve it. His advice on drainage is to "dig a trench down one side, line it with tar paper and fill that in with large rock, 3" or so. Here's the thing. This distant "cousins husband" is a bit of a know it all and general blowhard. I've seen, and had to work after, his "expert" concrete work, carpenty and floor covering work, and I can tell you it ain't pretty. He has been working in some construction work for a year or less now, and he is now the "expert" in all things related to dirt work.
I've never heard of this technique of "tar paper underlayment", and it sounds stupid to me, for various reasons. However, I'm not a know-it-all and am willing to be corrected or educated. Anybody on here with experience in construction ever heard of this? Honestly, I'd like someone with years of experience to chime in here and tell me to tell him he's an idiot, but I'll bow to his "superior" experience if someone on here can tell me I'm wrong.
The drainage ditch you are describing, I have heard being called a French Drain, the paper need not be tar paper, I have seen even newspaper used to the same effect. Although I never asked for an explanation for the paper, I always assumed it was added to reduce silt accumulation in the drain rock. A variation is to put paper or filter cloth over the top as well, when used as a hidden drainage conduit with grass as an example, planted over the top.
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Re: road building advice
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 109
Adjunct
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Adjunct
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 109 |
It's not tar paper that is used, It's a silt barrier that allows water through but stops erosion. imo i wouldn't waste the money on building ditches until i had the actual driving surface completed.
A variation of the same fabric is used under flower beds to help keep weeds from growing.
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Re: road building advice
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
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New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
A french drain is where you have a trench with gravel surrounded perforated plastic corrugated 4 or 6 inch drain tile, some times with a silt sock. It's like the drain tile around the footings of a new basement. http://www.securefsi.com/drainagerelief.asp
Last edited by MACMC; 07/09/2012 12:10 AM.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: road building advice
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 5,720
Check Pants
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Check Pants
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 5,720 |
I'm afraid I was talking about the old time ways, I'm not hip to current ditch tech. 
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Re: road building advice
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
Get a firm base with the desired slope, drainage, ditching, and crown before adding the base rock ('road bond'), and then layer in the gravel on top. Having the good drainage is important, which includes the crown and the side ditches and any culverts to get the water across the drive. Use all well graded crushed gravel. For maintenance look at the type of equipment and material the county uses (most are pretty good at this stuff) and try for the equivalent for your size tractor.
I'd address whether you need rock, and how much, and silt fences in your ditches after you get a feel for the runoff. It's gonna be different from from what you have now with the dirt road.
Last edited by Smokey3214; 07/09/2012 7:05 AM.
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Re: road building advice
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1
Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1 |
This is a question for Wade, it what he do...
One thing you can do to increase success is to take a hard look after a rain and see where the water wants to go. That will clue you where culverts and rock,will be the most useful.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: road building advice
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,060 Likes: 6
Worn Saddle
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OP
Worn Saddle
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,060 Likes: 6 |
I know about the "French drain", although I didn't know it was called that. (thanks for the site link, Mac") We do that all the time for new house and retaining wall construction. The part that threw me was the black tar paper laying in the bottom. I can't think of any reason for that. Before my son blows a couple hundred dollars for paper I figured I'd find out more. The location of the drain is a pretty steep slope, on the inside part of a road that has been cut into the side of the hill, much like a terrace.
Fidelis et Fortis
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Re: road building advice
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
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New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
Quote:
I'm afraid I was talking about the old time ways, I'm not hip to current ditch tech.
As motorcyclist we should avoid ditch tech. 
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: road building advice
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
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New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
This is hard, with out knowing the present drainage situation, as Oldroadie mentioned. As a builder, you know getting the final grade on a new yard might take 2 or 3 times before seeding or sod. After each rain you observe where corrections need to be made. But, I would think as an existing road the tail tell signs of where erosion or washout would take place. If you're not moving a lot of virgin ground or digging a very deep ditch, there's no need for silt fence. One advantage is your clay road base, which doesn't tend to washout, gets hard when compacted and over time can be like concrete with gravel on top.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: road building advice
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1
Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1 |
Can't help with the clay issue because our red behaves differently than that black stuff you have...
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: road building advice
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,060 Likes: 6
Worn Saddle
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OP
Worn Saddle
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,060 Likes: 6 |
Quote:
Can't help with the clay issue because our red behaves differently than that black stuff you have...
Nah, ours is the reddish variety also. Color of muddy red brick. We used to make little clay figures when we were kids, dug out of the bank, then we "fired" it under grandma's pot bellied stove.
Fidelis et Fortis
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Re: road building advice
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1
Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1 |
Then it probably behaves like ours. Like a sponge, it swells when wet and shrinks as it dries, and you also have the bonus of freezing. Around here in wet zones they underlay riprap, cover that with common gravel and compact to a hard surface. Then rocky clay that containsmquartz we call chert, compact that, then the finished road surface goes on top. Mostly chip and seal (tar and gravel) but also asphalt. Concrete road beds go right down on the gravel (which is a heavier application than other roads) with no intermediate layer.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: road building advice
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,060 Likes: 6
Worn Saddle
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OP
Worn Saddle
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,060 Likes: 6 |
Quote:
Then it probably behaves like ours. Like a sponge, it swells when wet and shrinks as it dries, and you also have the bonus of freezing. Around here in wet zones they underlay riprap, cover that with common gravel and compact to a hard surface. Then rocky clay that containsmquartz we call chert, compact that, then the finished road surface goes on top. Mostly chip and seal (tar and gravel) but also asphalt. Concrete road beds go right down on the gravel (which is a heavier application than other roads) with no intermediate layer.
Sounds like what I know so far. But I wanna hear that "Braniac" is full of sht about the tar paper on the bottom. 
Fidelis et Fortis
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Re: road building advice
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1
Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1 |
Yah, never heard about that tar paper business but as we say 'round heyah sho is suspect...
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: road building advice
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821 |
Be sure you have a good base compaction. Use a soil hardener like Macadamite and some plastic culvert for drainage. I have heard of people mixing Portland cement into the soil to harden it. Not sure of that procedure but should be easy to find and probably cheaper than the other stuff. The tar paper thing sounds like a short term solution.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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