 Why aren't others turning blue?
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While going through Member's Rides, I've noticed that most headers aren't blued. Within six months of ownership ('05 America), my headers turned. It started when I took a trip and was traveling at a brisk (ahem) pace. What's up with that?
Didn't buy into the hype, you can keep the change.
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Re: Why aren't others turning blue?
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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You either have the air injection system installed still or you are running too lean.
Blowing gravel off rural roads
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Re: Why aren't others turning blue?
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Perhaps it's running lean. Wonder why the mechanic who installed the aftermarket exhaust and jets didn't notice this?  The AI was removed before I took delivery.
Didn't buy into the hype, you can keep the change.
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Re: Why aren't others turning blue?
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Joined: Dec 2006
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Did you rejet? Do you have popping?
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Why aren't others turning blue?
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Joined: Sep 2010
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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I turned mine blue intentionally.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: Why aren't others turning blue?
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Joined: Jul 2005
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Oil Expert
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Llke Loco there, i did the same . i let them get a light blueish then removed the AI . It does come off with lots of elbow grease and ........ and......sheeet i forgot what that stuff is called now , blue off maybe sorry cant remember , search the site its on here somewhere
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Re: Why aren't others turning blue?
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Joined: Feb 2006
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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I spent 6 hours buffing the blue off the headers after I
found this site, and learned about jetting etc.
Uncle Charlie
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Re: Why aren't others turning blue?
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Blue Away and Blue Job are the 2 that co0me to mind but there are other products out there that work too. Mine have not turned blue since I first got the bike and got the jetting right.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Why aren't others turning blue?
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Joined: Jun 2006
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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+1 on AI removal and proper jetting. Never had any problems with blueing.
'06 TBA - Black, AI and Snorkel removed, K&N Drop In, Gutted Stock Pipes, 145/42, 2 turns out.
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Re: Why aren't others turning blue?
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Joined: Dec 2006
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Sorry, reread your post, the mechanic did rejet. Some Triumph dealers and indie shops readjust the carbs after new exhaust and jets. They use an oxygen sensor and adjust the air mixture screws making the bike run lean, sometimes causing popping also. Use Blue Job and turn your screws out i/2 turn.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Why aren't others turning blue?
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Joined: May 2005
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Thanks for the tips. The bike is due for servicing, I'll have the shop check it out. Also will try some of the suggested products for getting rid of the blue.
Didn't buy into the hype, you can keep the change.
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Re: Why aren't others turning blue?
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Joined: Feb 2012
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My 04 BA had 30K miles and blue header pipes when I bought it and it had mufflers PN A9608020 installed on 6/25/05 per service records with no mention of jet change on the work order. I get a nice burbling on deceleration; not sure about actual popping - I'll have to listen for it next time out.
Does this mean it has been or is running lean? I thought the blue pipes were normal until I read this thread. Maybe it is an Arkansas thing? I run 91 E10 gas and get around 50 MPG in conservative 2 lane riding.
Phil in Northwest Arkansas
04 America, Black, Corbin seat, TORs, no AI, 34K
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Re: Why aren't others turning blue?
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The America/Speedy headers are double walled, so the outer visible pipe shouldn't show bluing. Next time you look at a standard Bonnie notice the difference in size of the headers compared to your BA's. The Bonnie's head is the same as the BA's, but the headers are smaller OD and not double walled and will blue past the first curve.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Why aren't others turning blue?
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Quote:
The America/Speedy headers are double walled, so the outer visible pipe shouldn't show bluing. Next time you look at a standard Bonnie notice the difference in size of the headers compared to your BA's. The Bonnie's head is the same as the BA's, but the headers are smaller OD and not double walled and will blue past the first curve.
So if mine are blue to orange down 8 to 9 inches the exhaust is too hot? And too lean? Is the only carb adjustment the idle mixture and re-jetting is needed if it runs too hot/lean?
Is it possible to check CO content in the exhaust (manual says 0.45 to 3.0% at idle) at anything besides idle or does my 04 have the catalyst mentioned in the manual that precludes CO check at the tailpipes? (My British Car Club has an exhaust analyzer I can use if it is possible to check)
And finally, the PO said this bike was cold natured, and sometimes it is and sometimes not. Would changing the mufflers have any effect on starting? Would the idle adjustment affect "cold" starting? Or is the 790 just cold natured as he said?
I bought the tubing to make a manometer to check carb sync and hope to have that done this week.
Phil in Northwest Arkansas
04 America, Black, Corbin seat, TORs, no AI, 34K
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Re: Why aren't others turning blue?
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Is your AI removed? Phil I'm guessing your lean if it's blued eight inches down the header. I have a 03 America and it has never had a problem with cold starts. Balancing your carbs is a great idea. Of the 8 new Triumphs I have removed AI, re-jetted, and installed open pipes 7 of them were running lean on the left side. These were brand new bikes, so balancing is a good idea. I've never installed Triumph brand performance pipes, so I don't know if re-jetting is necessary. Hopefully someone on here will chime in or you could call your dealer. FYI, I run my bikes rich, gurgling is fine,but I hate popping. Let us know your progress. You might find all you need to do is clean it up, balance the carbs and turn your AF screws out. Good luck. 
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Why aren't others turning blue?
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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I have an 04 SM and an 04 BA ,they were "cold natured" until I rejetted them. Now no problem starting cold, fires right up. Headers haven't blued in quite some time. I would guess you are lean but way rich can blue pipes too from unburned fuel burning in the header pipe. First step would be to see what if an changes have been made to your carbs.
No need to run premium gas, it isn't better than lower grades it just resists pre-ignition more so higher compression engines won't ping. You can run mid grade fuel.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Why aren't others turning blue?
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I think you got to way too rich to blue headers. Slightly lean bikes run much hotter than slightly rich bikes IE to get rid of the excessive deceleration popping. For example, if you compare two standard Bonnies, both with after market open pipes, AI removed, AF screws out to eliminate popping the one not re-jetted will blue to the second curve of the headers. The re-jetted bike will blue just passed the first curve. I guess we are saying the same thing, but I've never seen a rich Triumph with over bluing.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Why aren't others turning blue?
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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True was just sayin' what he describes is a lean condition and you have to be way rich to cause bluing and if that rich will also smell fuel in most cases.
(I knew a disreputable HD shop that would jet a bike way rich on purpose to wash out the top end creating more work)
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Why aren't others turning blue?
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Joined: Dec 2006
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Dog, yes we agree, we just said it differently.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Why aren't others turning blue?
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Quote:
Is your AI removed? Phil I'm guessing your lean if it's blued eight inches down the header. I have a 03 America and it has never had a problem with cold starts. Balancing your carbs is a great idea. Of the 8 new Triumphs I have removed AI, re-jetted, and installed open pipes 7 of them were running lean on the left side. These were brand new bikes, so balancing is a good idea.
I've never installed Triumph brand performance pipes, so I don't know if re-jetting is necessary. Hopefully someone on here will chime in or you could call your dealer.
FYI, I run my bikes rich, gurgling is fine, but I hate popping. Let us know your progress. You might find all you need to do is clean it up, balance the carbs and turn your AF screws out. Good luck.
Sorry I was off line for a few days, but I got my manometer made and learned a few things; 1/4" ID tubing is too big, Marvel Mystery oil is too light for a carb balancing manometer, and that little balance screw is damned hard to turn. I do have a 90 degree angle 1/4 inch drive device, but it is too tall at the 90 degree end to fit straight onto the screw under the tank, and that screw is pretty tight to turn.
It initially had higher vacuum on the left carb and then I got it too high on the right and sucked MM oil into the carb, and now it is too high on the left again and it starts to suck the MM oil out of the manometer tube into the left carb at idle. The manual doesn't say which way to turn the screw to reduce the left carb opening; which way should I turn it to get back closer to balance again?
The PO had a dealer do all the service on this 04 and checking his service records from new, there is no mention of removing air induction or changing the main jets when they installed the long slash TORs, but there is no AI now and there are rubber caps on all the four of the hose bibs on the intake side of the carbs.
I don't know what the AF screws are; are these the idle mix screws or something else? Or are they part of the AI that I don't have?
It started right away with the choke on today in an ambient of mid 70s, and I did hear some pops as I reved it and let it back off while warming up after the choke was pushed in.
Phil in Northwest Arkansas
04 America, Black, Corbin seat, TORs, no AI, 34K
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Re: Why aren't others turning blue?
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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Quote:
...The manual doesn't say which way to turn the screw to reduce the left carb opening; which way should I turn it to get back closer to balance again?...
clockwise increases the right carb. Counterclockwise the left carby, e.g., if left tube is higher than right tube turn screw right ever so slightly.
Blowing gravel off rural roads
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Re: Why aren't others turning blue?
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Yes the AF, air-fuel, mixture screws are the idle mix screws on the bottom of each carb. I'd turn them out 3 turns to start with and see if the bike will start without choke. Let us know your progress.
Last edited by MACMC; 04/28/2012 10:59 AM.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Why aren't others turning blue?
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Quote:
Quote:
...The manual doesn't say which way to turn the screw to reduce the left carb opening; which way should I turn it to get back closer to balance again?...
clockwise increases the right carb. Counterclockwise the left carby, e.g., if left tube is higher than right tube turn screw right ever so slightly.
Ever so slightly indeed! I used a vacuum gage alternating sides turning the carb balance screw with the engine off so I could push down on it, and got the readings close (about 9 Hg at 1000 rpm) before connecting the manometer. (I also put a 1/4 set screw - grub screw for you English blokes - in each hose to try to reduce the flutter. Now the MM oil is slightly higher in the left tube at idle and a couple of inches higher in the right tube at 3000 RPM, and the light oil is very sensitive shifting a foot or two difference either way as you increase and decrease RPM and doesn't always settle at the same level at idle.
S0...question - should I try for equal vacuum at idle or at 3000 to 4000 RPM where it usually runs on the road? And for you Speed Master guys, is the OEM Tach accurate at idle and is the first mark really 1000 RPM? It sounds like it is barely ticking over there.
Oh yes, if the AF screws are up inside the boss right by the carb heater connectors, mine are round with no slots but a very slight flat on one side so I suppose they take a special tool to adjust.
Phil in Northwest Arkansas
04 America, Black, Corbin seat, TORs, no AI, 34K
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Re: Why aren't others turning blue?
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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I use 2 cycle oil in the meter since it readily burns off if sucked in. A small ball valve at the bottom of the loop allows control so you don't suck anything in. Once hooked up and bike is running slowly open the ball valve if it starts to get sucked too far you can close it again and adjust and try again until you can leave it open to adjust.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Why aren't others turning blue?
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Quote:
I use 2 cycle oil in the meter since it readily burns off if sucked in. A small ball valve at the bottom of the loop allows control so you don't suck anything in. Once hooked up and bike is running slowly open the ball valve if it starts to get sucked too far you can close it again and adjust and try again until you can leave it open to adjust.
The ball valve is a good idea; I'll keep an eye out for a small one to add. I ended up setting my carbs to balance at 3500 RPM since It spends most of its time around there, and I found an inexpensive D tool at http://www.bellacorse.com/bce011-14.htm to adjust the idle mix. Now I'll just need to find out what main jet is recommended for the TOR long slash pipes if other than the original 120 jet is needed.
Phil in Northwest Arkansas
04 America, Black, Corbin seat, TORs, no AI, 34K
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Re: Why aren't others turning blue?
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Phil, some where on this site is a jet calculator. Maybe someone who knows will chime in.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Why aren't others turning blue?
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Quote:
I found an inexpensive D tool at http://www.bellacorse.com/bce011-14.htm
Mike is a nice guy, spent a lot of time on the phone with me to figure out what spring I needed on the Hagon shocks I was buying.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Why aren't others turning blue?
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Joined: Feb 2012
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Quote:
Phil, some where on this site is a jet calculator. Maybe someone who knows will chime in.
Quote:
Quote:
I found an inexpensive D tool at http://www.bellacorse.com/bce011-14.htm
Mike is a nice guy, spent a lot of time on the phone with me to figure out what spring I needed on the Hagon shocks I was buying.
Found the jet calculator at http://www.bonnevilleamerica.com/dinqua/friar/ which did not differentiate among TORs (mine are the quieter long ones) and calculated 23.5 main jet for TORs and stock everything else. The closest main jet choices are 22 and 25 so I ordered 25s, Needle shims (just in case I need another option), a D tool, Stainless carb hex screws, and new plugs for a reasonable $31 total from BellaCorse. These parts are all listed for a Bonneville which I assume are the same for the Bonnie America. I'll see how the 25s work before making any other changes, but I think I'll just leave the blue on the pipes and check temps before and after with a non-contact thermometer.
Phil in Northwest Arkansas
04 America, Black, Corbin seat, TORs, no AI, 34K
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Re: Why aren't others turning blue?
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Yes, carbs are same as Bonnie, plugs too.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Why aren't others turning blue?
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Yes, carbs are same as Bonnie, plugs too.
Thanks. I just pulled the seat to check the air filter and discovered it is a K&N in the stock location, and that the top of the air box has a big crack in it; that could definitely be a cause of lean running if I am correct in assuming that the air is supposed to enter only through the snorkel into the center of the air filter and not through the top of the box. I'll try taping up the box crack for now, but does anyone know if a single K&N would be equivalent to the "Uni Single" in the main jet calculator? changing to "Dual K&N" jumps the jet size to 148.5 while "Uni Single" returns the same jet size as "Stock Paper" at 123.5.
I guess there were things done to this bike that are not in the service records, like the extra device I found on top of the air box that makes the rear signals into auxiliary running and brake lights. I may find that the main jets have been changed, but so far I don't think so.
Phil in Northwest Arkansas
04 America, Black, Corbin seat, TORs, no AI, 34K
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Re: Why aren't others turning blue?
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Phil, I think by dual K&N filters means installing a air box elimination kit and putting a filter on each carb. My guess is that the K&N is equal to a stock filter, especially if it's just paper.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Why aren't others turning blue?
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Phil, I think by dual K&N filters means installing a air box elimination kit and putting a filter on each carb. My guess is that the K&N is equal to a stock filter, especially if it's just paper.
The K&N is a permanent wire reinforced filter that you clean with a cleaner and then treat with oil (K&N oil preferred according to the K&N instructions, of course). They are supposed to pass air more freely and claim to increase horsepower by some percentage.
The auto sites have major discussions about this with some supporting K&N's claims and others claiming they pass too much dirt along with more air. I have a Daimler Double Six (think 80's Jaguar XJ6 sedan body with a V12 engine) that came to me with K&N filters installed in stock intake cans and a K&N cleaning and recharge kit, so I have the recommended oil for the America's K&N filter which is a single oval filter in the stock air box that I assume is the same dimensions as the stock paper filter. It is perhaps more free flowing than a paper filter but not as free flowing as dual filters directly on each carb inlet, so the jet calculator treats it as a single filter with no affect over the stock filter.
Unfortunately for my headers, the big split in the air box probably overrides any filter choice in affecting the air fuel mix. I taped it up and plan to replace the cracked air box with a used one, but I don't mind the blue headers; I just want the bike to run it's best with the current filter and TORs.
Phil in Northwest Arkansas
04 America, Black, Corbin seat, TORs, no AI, 34K
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Re: Why aren't others turning blue?
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Phil, per your description, my guess is that it's equivalent to a Uni-Filter.
Depending on the severity of the damage to the air box, why couldn't you just fix it with 3M epoxy and fiberglass tape?
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Why aren't others turning blue?
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Quote:
Phil, per your description, my guess is that it's equivalent to a Uni-Filter.
Depending on the severity of the damage to the air box, why couldn't you just fix it with 3M epoxy and fiberglass tape?
That's what I assumed; that the Uni might be equivalent to the K&N. I should have taken a photo of the air box before I temporarily taped it up, but it was pretty bad; a fore & aft split across the top open between 1/16 and 3/32 of an inch that also ran down to the middle intake cover screw, and there were splits along the right side too.
A used 2005 air box is on the way from a fellow BA member, and my #125 jets came today. I'll replace the air box first and record header temps before I mess with the jets - one thing at a time seems the safest approach.
Phil in Northwest Arkansas
04 America, Black, Corbin seat, TORs, no AI, 34K
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