 v-twin
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Loquacious
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OP
Loquacious
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,839 Likes: 3 |
if i live to be 100 i will never understand why anyone would want a v twin. imho that motors design is just wrong, they get to hot and break down way more than liquid cooled or p-twin motors. a friend just burnt his thighs running his hd and then was told he needed the heat deflectors for the rear cylinder...WTF is that???? spent 20?k for his new fxbfd and he has to buy heat sheilds to ride it??? another friend got one that has spent more time in the shop then on the road, its in the shop again?? was on a ride a few weeks back (bikers for babies) and another friend broke down half way thru the run, rear cylinder siezed?? bike is less than a yr old and they are telling him "oil pump died" hahahahaha i will just never understand.  when the obvious solution is a p-twin or liq. cooled. was at the kids last night for T-day and one of their friends showed up wearing h.d. shirt and sweatshirt. i asked "do you ride" answer "no" question "then why the hell are you advertising for a co. that you dont own stock or product" "they should be paying you to wear their shite" my son kinda brought the subject around to "HEY LETS START THE BON FIRE" hahahahahahaha i looked over to my oldest granddaughter (16) and said quietly in her ear "yea and lets burn that ladies shirt" to which my granddaughter bust out laughing and we just kept it to ourselves hahahahahaha hers a 16 yr old girl that gets it  i love her 
ENJOY!!!!! NEWT!!!!!
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Re: v-twin
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,937
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,937 |
???!
Have you ever visited our "General Tech" or "Lounge" sections?
An awful number of members bikes have taken a sh1t on them. CDI's, coils, electrical issues, starter bosses, oil leaks around the head, etc.
I've had four H/D's, and didn't experience a problem with any of them. Just luck, I'm sure.
If the number of triumphs were the same as the number of H/D, the horror stories would be more balanced.
He11, I'm STILL looking for a CDI so I can ride my piece of sh1t P-twin again. (and my Buell buddy's kinda razzin' me about that)
And you may see me tonight
With an illegal smile
J. Prine
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Re: v-twin
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,212
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,212 |
i think all bikes have there issues and certainly the number of them sold on the road would denote the number of them having potantil issues, i guess its a relevent thing more sold more likley there will be issues. I have owned my share of bikes over time, never an HD so i cannot and will not speak from experience. But upkeep and maintanance is a very big factor, i was out this summer at a local stop over coffee place (tims for you canadians) and an hd guy was chatting about the problems he was having with his 2 year old bike, the thing was dirty as heck and if he had not told me the age i might have guessed it was 10-15 years old, you could tell he did not care for it, just rode it then complained if it broke down, many of the "current" HD riders are yuppies that have no clude how to even change their own oil, so i suspect that is part of it. But the HD do seem to have their issues with heat apparently these days, but my speedy can sure get pretty warm too on a hot day.
2007 Speedmaster and miss it!
2013 T-Bird Storm and Luvin it!
Catching a yellow jacket in your shirt at 70 mph can double your vocabulary
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Re: v-twin
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,839 Likes: 3
Loquacious
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OP
Loquacious
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,839 Likes: 3 |
the only hd i never had a problem with was my 47, the only v-twins i never had issues with were liq cooled all the other hds i have had were problems either things kept falling off or had to tweak them everytime i wanted to ride or the rear cylinder got so hot it was scary and my BA will run 90mph all day and when i get there i can put my hand on the cylinder without burning it off and i live in sw fl. but my point was, why would anyone buy something that is known to be troublesome and unreliable that handles like a truck and cost more than some cars?? when there are many alternetives that are much better. i am not saying that everyone should be riding Trumph but i just cant seem to understand the lemmings that go out and buy those v-twins any aircooled v-twin not just h.d. if they are rigid mounted in the frame they shake you to death and if they are rubber mounted then they handle like crapolium and i dont care which v-twin we are talkin about. i understand them maybe wanting to buy American but there is really no such thing anymore everything is world built so the way i see it about the only v-twin that is worth anything is the Ducati, its design at least keeps air on the rear cylinder.
ENJOY!!!!! NEWT!!!!!
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Re: v-twin
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1
Second Wind
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Second Wind
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1 |
The HDs are a bit harder to work on. If ya need to change the drive belt there is a lot involved with pulling the whole primary drive, and a simple starter change requires ya to pull the primary cover. There are three places to change oil rather than just one. All in all the truth is that they are pretty good bikes EXPENSIVE and not worth the price, but you can feel confident in riding one where ever you want to go.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: v-twin
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
I had a Kaw Vulcan 1500 for a trouble free decade but it was water cooled. From what I've read the tech specs on a V-Rod are similar to this old Kawasaki design. My friends with Harleys do quote pretty exorbitant numbers for routine service. I never rode one that handled nearly as well as my Vulcan and my TBA is in a whole different universe. It's their money to spend though my first impression is usually that HD riders are probably not the brightest lamps on the porch. By and large that first impression proved to be fairly accurate.
I noticed something I found interesting that reflects on their R&D. I was looking at a list of Clymer manuals. The Honda VFR, for example, had a new Clymer manual every few years as the bike was constantly updated. There were about 5 or 6 editions just for the VFR. There were dozens and dozens under Honda. A page full of listings. Under Harley Davidson there were only two manuals, 'Big Twins' and "Small Twins', going back to 1974. Not enough upgrades to justify a new edition over 37 years.
I have no idea of the validity of this but I often heard that HD makes more money on clothing than on motorcycles.
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Re: v-twin
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,701 Likes: 22
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,701 Likes: 22 |
Newt are you talking all V-twins? I will tell you my air cooled Victory will run a whole lot more than 90 all day and not burn my leg. It does 90 in 3rd gear. I have spent money on tires, oil and brakes. JD Power rated it one of the best motorcycle motors in the world.
Now, my Triumph has killed two CDI units, two coils, rattled the chain guard to oblivion and warped a front rotor. The stock suspension was nothing short of garbage.
The Honda V-twins with liquid are about as trouble free as anyone could ask for.
If you don't like V-twins which is very clear, that is OK>
Every V-twin is not a Harley early generation block head. There are lots of flavors of V motors. They are not all created equal.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: v-twin
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964
Stickman Yogi
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Stickman Yogi
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964 |
Tons of v-twins out there do just fine. For example, Moto Guzzi seems to do alright with theirs.
Live to love, love to live.
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Re: v-twin
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,228
I live in the sun downunder
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I live in the sun downunder
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,228 |
Quote:
My BA will run 90mph all day and when I get there I can put my hand on the cylinder without burning it off
Newt, you must be thick skinned.
I had my Speedy 5 years. Here's the list of repairs.
New CDI. 3 brake discs, 1 coil, 2 clutch cables, new rectifier. 
FrankW
Ex Speedmaster rider, went to the Dark Side now riding an America.
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Re: v-twin
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,243 Likes: 64
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,243 Likes: 64 |
My repairs since 04 so far were tires, oil, speedo cable.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: v-twin
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
In the past 15 years, 12 on the Vulcan, 3 on my TBA, I've bought tires, oil, coolant, shafty lube, and brake fluid. Plus upgrades and farkles. Man, some of you guys have had more repairs in the past couple years than I have in the past 40. I broke a clutch cable once, 35 years ago. Sprockets and chains. Brakes. Inner tube on the KLR got punctured. That's about it. I must be getting smiled upon or something.
That being said, I anticipate that my new discovery of off road riding is gonna up the repair ante.
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Re: v-twin
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,623 Likes: 2
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,623 Likes: 2 |
Newt, you need to demo ride a Victory 106 V-Twin. Oil-cooled, just like your Triumph P-Twin.
Since 2007 we've put about 75,000 miles on Victory V-twin motorcycles. They are plenty fast & torquey, and absolutely reliable & trouble-free. Like Ron said, gas, oil, tires and brakes. No mechanical issues.
Kevin - Luceo Non Uro
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Re: v-twin
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,174 Likes: 15
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,174 Likes: 15 |
I must admit HD has gotten more clever with their recent attempts to reduce heat damage to the rear cylinder due to low air flow. Since all HD models are now EFI they have (at least on the dressers) made it so when the engine is idling (stuck in traffic, etc..) and gets too hot, the ignition to the rear cylinder is cut off (no more fire) the fuel continues, which cools the cylinder. When the throttle is turned the ignition immediately resumes. The cycles as needed until back in normal air flow.
Interesting solution huh!
not quite sure how that fits in with the eviromental types, using raw fuel as coolant, but I suppose all air cooled bike run higher a/f's, just not 1:0.
and I do agree, Ducati makes a kick a** V twin. But not really in the same conversation about HD motors.
05 speedmaster - 1100cc, 11:1 racing pistons, Carillo rods, thunderbike cams, ported and polished head, 2mm over intake and exhaust valves, Barnett kevlar clutch, scepter pipes, oversize manifolds, 45mm HSR's, TTP stage 4 firestarter
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Re: v-twin
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1
Second Wind
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Second Wind
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1 |
I do service work on alot of HDs in my shop and have found a significant increase in the quality for their factory extras on the later models.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: v-twin
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 592
Adjunct
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Adjunct
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 592 |
Quote:
My repairs since 04 so far were tires, oil, speedo cable.
You got me beat by a speedo cable (knock on wood)
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Re: v-twin
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 877 Likes: 2
3/4 Throttle
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3/4 Throttle
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 877 Likes: 2 |
No issues with my V-Twin it dont seem run much hotter than anything I have owned... 
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Re: v-twin
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 413
Adjunct
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Adjunct
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 413 |
No issues, ever, with the V-twin VStar (other than me dropping it unloading it off a truck that is).
Just got the America back from having to replace the CDI because when it heated up (after about 10 miles) it was only firing on one cylinder.
No measurements, but subjectively the VStar seems to run cooler than the America - less than a third the size though.
If you want to see how well your bike handles heat don't compare "running at 90 all day" - check it out after 30 minutes in stop and go rush hour city traffic (mostly stop) on a 90+ degree day.
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Re: v-twin
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,060 Likes: 6
Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,060 Likes: 6 |
Some of you guys scare me with your list of parts you've had to replace on your Triumphs. I have put nearly 30 K on my 02, and haven't replaced anything but ordinary worn out stuff, tires, oil and such. I feel blessed. I have always had a few friends and relatives who has an HD or two. They are always complaining about the maintenence and the money their dealers are charging. I've got a feeling that if you can provide the cash to open a HD dealership, you're gonna make it back pretty fast.
Fidelis et Fortis
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Re: v-twin
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 348
Adjunct
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Adjunct
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 348 |
Quote:
If you want to see how well your bike handles heat don't compare "running at 90 all day" - check it out after 30 minutes in stop and go rush hour city traffic (mostly stop) on a 90+ degree day.
That is the truth right there! My bike is horrible in stop and go traffic as well and I too just had to replace the CDI. HD dealerships charge a stupid amount of money in the garage because of a lot of the clueless owners that don't know anything about bikes. I'm sorry but if you are paying $400 for an oil change...then you need to invest $40 in a Haynes manual and start learning your bike a little bit. I had a XL1200S back in the day that I cafe'd out and put close to 100,000 miles on that air cooled engine. That XL engine is a landmark engine; I like my Bonnies better but that is a far cry from saying the other is a useless bike.
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Re: v-twin
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
Quote:
Newt, you need to demo ride a Victory 106 V-Twin. Oil-cooled, just like your Triumph P-Twin.
Since 2007 we've put about 75,000 miles on Victory V-twin motorcycles. They are plenty fast & torquey, and absolutely reliable & trouble-free. Like Ron said, gas, oil, tires and brakes. No mechanical issues.
Victory makes a good bike.
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Re: v-twin
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
Quote:
I must admit HD has gotten more clever with their recent attempts to reduce heat damage to the rear cylinder due to low air flow. Since all HD models are now EFI they have (at least on the dressers) made it so when the engine is idling (stuck in traffic, etc..) and gets too hot, the ignition to the rear cylinder is cut off (no more fire) the fuel continues, which cools the cylinder. When the throttle is turned the ignition immediately resumes. The cycles as needed until back in normal air flow.
Interesting solution huh!
not quite sure how that fits in with the eviromental types, using raw fuel as coolant, but I suppose all air cooled bike run higher a/f's, just not 1:0.
and I do agree, Ducati makes a kick a** V twin. But not really in the same conversation about HD motors.
So, the solution to an overheating rear cylinder is to cut off the ignition to that cylinder? Well, that pretty much confirms every bad stereotype I've ever heard about HD engineering. I told that one to my mechanical engineer son while he was having a drink and he snorted out his nose.
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Re: v-twin
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 8,639 Likes: 3
Old Hand
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Old Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 8,639 Likes: 3 |
An air cooled transverse vertical twin is a horrible design. First off, it's much wider than it needs to be. The longer radius that all that metal has to traverse has an adverse effect on handling.
Second, the bore size is limited by how far apart the rider can comfortably spread his knees. This is the reason Norton had to cant the cylinders forward to get enough bore to make 850 CC's.
Third, there are cooling fins on only 3/4 of the cylinder because the other cylinder is in the way of the remaining fourth. This results in uneven heating/cooling that distorts the cylinders, increasing wear and causing seriously complex design problems.
The rear cylinder didn't always run hot on a traditional V twin. Before the politicians fancied themselves to be engineers, the 90 degree timing offset caused the rear cylinder to get less than a fair share of air/fuel mixture. At idle, it would only have enough mixture to fire maybe every second or third power stroke, resulting in the traditional raggedy idle. At small throttle openings, both cylinders fired every power stroke, but the rear still had a smaller air fuel charge. By the time the throttle was opened enough and the engine turned fast enough to offset the timing differences, the bike was going fast enough to supply plenty of cooling air front and back.
Let's hope there's intelligent life somewhere in space 'cause it's buggar all down here. -- Monte Python
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Re: v-twin
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
My son called it "1930's engineering".
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Re: v-twin
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964
Stickman Yogi
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Stickman Yogi
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964 |
Quote:
An air cooled transverse vertical twin is a horrible design. First off, it's much wider than it needs to be. The longer radius that all that metal has to traverse has an adverse effect on handling.
Second, the bore size is limited by how far apart the rider can comfortably spread his knees. This is the reason Norton had to cant the cylinders forward to get enough bore to make 850 CC's.
Third, there are cooling fins on only 3/4 of the cylinder because the other cylinder is in the way of the remaining fourth. This results in uneven heating/cooling that distorts the cylinders, increasing wear and causing seriously complex design problems.
The rear cylinder didn't always run hot on a traditional V twin. Before the politicians fancied themselves to be engineers, the 90 degree timing offset caused the rear cylinder to get less than a fair share of air/fuel mixture. At idle, it would only have enough mixture to fire maybe every second or third power stroke, resulting in the traditional raggedy idle. At small throttle openings, both cylinders fired every power stroke, but the rear still had a smaller air fuel charge. By the time the throttle was opened enough and the engine turned fast enough to offset the timing differences, the bike was going fast enough to supply plenty of cooling air front and back.
That's some pretty cool insight into the history and development of the v-twin, Ed. Much appreciated!
Live to love, love to live.
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Re: v-twin
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Sorry Ed, but I'm spurred to take exception with a few of your points here. Quote:
An air cooled transverse vertical twin is a horrible design. First off, it's much wider than it needs to be.
Nope, it's not. It's actually a very good design, and in effect is reasonably narrow. The only problem with the design can be the vibration inherent in a 360 degree crank placement, but as is evident with the modern Hinckley Twins, that can be almost completely eliminated with the addition of a balance shaft.
Quote:
The longer radius that all that metal has to traverse has an adverse effect on handling.
Please explain what you meant here. Were you talking about "piston speed" or "flywheel effect" or something else perhaps? In any regard here, I must say I think your supposition is overstated.
Quote:
Second, the bore size is limited by how far apart the rider can comfortably spread his knees.
On a "vertical" engine, yes, that is somewhat true....however....
....Quote:
This is the reason Norton had to cant the cylinders forward to get enough bore to make 850 CC's.
...this was not the case with the Norton Commando. The Commando's engine was slanted forward in order to lower the profile of the new "Isolastic" frame and thus lower the center of gravity of the motorcycle. The Commando's engine(which btw was originally a 750cc displacement and was only increased to 850cc the efforts to keep it competitive with its growing Japanese displacement competition) was no wider than the "vertical" twin Norton 650cc Atlas which preceded the Commando, and thus it was not slanted forward because of any need for "space" on the last iterations of the Commando series with their 850cc displacement.
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: v-twin
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,701 Likes: 22
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,701 Likes: 22 |
Hey Dwight, maybe the T-bird was a bit too wide. So they shaved the fins.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: v-twin
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 520
Adjunct
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Adjunct
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 520 |
I work at a bike shop in Nlr AR and worked on pretty much everything on I've done a few HD including big dog choppers and other HD powered bikes some Triumphs ducatis Hondas Kawasaki Suzuki BMW and guzzi from full blown motocross bikes to dual sport and adventure bikes to cruisers to crotch rockets they all have there pros and cons
Like the harleys having 3 drain plugs some say that's unnecessary I says it's a fail safe say a bearing in the trans goes out and some metal is floating around in the trans the primary chain and motor will be safe from failure that's the way a mechanic looks at it. As far as the best bikes to work on BMW is probly the best bike to work on followed by triumph the worst bikes to have to work on (in my opinion) and Suzukis and Hondas mainly VTXs. I used to be a Harley hater there still not my favorite but they kinda grow on u I rode a road kind about 400 miles one weekend and kinda wanted one. My prospect in my club just got a sportster and in the first month we had to fix a wiring short that left him stranded replace the fuel inlet elbow, the stator, the regulator and tighten countless bolts before he even got his tags but it's just the luck of the draw when it come down to it
Last edited by damien; 11/27/2011 3:59 PM.
2005 America 145 mains, , #48 pilots, , k&n pod filters, ported intakes manifolds, nology coils and wires, pro com CDI, 62 HP at wheel 68,000 hard miles still runs great gone "traded"
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Re: v-twin
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,839 Likes: 3
Loquacious
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OP
Loquacious
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,839 Likes: 3 |
correct me if i am wrong (please) but, i always thought that tipping the cylinder forward had something to do with fuel flow?? maybe it also had something to do with the frame or center of gravity but wasnt the fuel issue a big part of it?? isnt thst part of the reason why the in-line 4's of today tip like that??  if i am wrong then i am sorry but i must have been misinformed many yrs ago by someone i thought knew something of such matters 
ENJOY!!!!! NEWT!!!!!
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Re: v-twin
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,243 Likes: 64
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,243 Likes: 64 |
Going back to the heat issue, the horizontally opposed twin has to be one of the best cooling engines made for an air cooled engine.
Effect to handling, vertical twin and V twin both spin the same way and have basicly the same centrificial force so I really don't see how one would be any better than the other in that department. Now take the horizontally opposed twin or an inline engine like the rocket and those have the centrifical force trying to pull the bike to one side adversely effecting handling to a certain extent.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: v-twin
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Yep newt, as far as I know, a downdraft fuel delivery setup to the combustion chambers is supposed to be an optimal arrangement. However, I don't think in case of the Norton Commandos or for most of the older Japanese inline fours there was enough of a canted forward cylinder head design for the downdraft effect to supply much on an increase in power.
I think in most cases back then, it might have been a way of both lowering the center-of-gravity and also a means of putting more weight forward, which is preferable for better handling on high-performance motorcycles.
Btw, I saw in this month's Cycle World that BMW will soon be selling a new water-cooled R-series (Flat Twin "Boxer") motorcycle, and they've turned the cylinders 90 degrees forward, so instead of the fuel feeding from the back of each cylinder and the exhaust coming out of the front which all the Boxer twins always had, the new R's will have a downdraft fuel delivery to the top of the cylinders and the exhaust will exit from the bottom.
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: v-twin
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 331
Adjunct
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Adjunct
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 331 |
This one is like the neverending story. Having owned quite a few Hds the main reason I went back to Triumph was value for money. The modern HD is a good unit and the ones I owned did go very well-they have problems just the same as Triumph and even BMW but in the main I had a good run. Sometimes I think it is just plain luck of the draw aside from the inherent faults that some models come out with and I include all of them. 
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Re: v-twin
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Quote:
Hey Dwight, maybe the T-bird was a bit too wide. So they shaved the fins.
Could be, but while I know you were just kiddin' here, I still feel it was just a slight aesthetic oversight on the part of the boys in Hinckley, if ya ask me.
(...'cause of course those fins wouldn't have added much width to the T-Bird's engine, if at all)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: v-twin
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 8,639 Likes: 3
Old Hand
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Old Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 8,639 Likes: 3 |
Quote:
Quote:
The longer radius that all that metal has to traverse has an adverse effect on handling.
Please explain what you meant here. Were you talking about "piston speed" or "flywheel effect" or something else perhaps? In any regard here, I must say I think your supposition is overstated.
The farther mass is off the centerline, the farther it moves vertically when the bike leans. I suspect that the relationship of inertia and distance follows the "square law" as do many other things in physics. The increase in inertial resistance combines with having to raise/lower the mass of the outer engine parts farther because they travel on a longer radius means a wider engine interferes with quick cornering.
The ideal engine for a motorcycle is a long stroke big bore single except for a few minor annoyances like the tendency to shake the nails out of your boots. They are very narrow, have cooling fins all the way around the cylinders and there is no rear cylinder to worry with.
Let's hope there's intelligent life somewhere in space 'cause it's buggar all down here. -- Monte Python
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Re: v-twin
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 520
Adjunct
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Adjunct
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 520 |
Let's not forget the Harley davidson XA 750
2005 America 145 mains, , #48 pilots, , k&n pod filters, ported intakes manifolds, nology coils and wires, pro com CDI, 62 HP at wheel 68,000 hard miles still runs great gone "traded"
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Re: v-twin
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,847
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,847 |
Quote:
Tons of v-twins out there do just fine. For example, Moto Guzzi seems to do alright with theirs.
That's a V-Twin mounted properly..... (had to say it)
Warren
04 Caspian Blue and Silver America
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Re: v-twin
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 688
Adjunct
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Adjunct
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 688 |
Quote:
An air cooled transverse vertical twin is a horrible design. First off, it's much wider than it needs to be. The longer radius that all that metal has to traverse has an adverse effect on handling.
Second, the bore size is limited by how far apart the rider can comfortably spread his knees. This is the reason Norton had to cant the cylinders forward to get enough bore to make 850 CC's.
Third, there are cooling fins on only 3/4 of the cylinder because the other cylinder is in the way of the remaining fourth. This results in uneven heating/cooling that distorts the cylinders, increasing wear and causing seriously complex design problems.
The rear cylinder didn't always run hot on a traditional V twin. Before the politicians fancied themselves to be engineers, the 90 degree timing offset caused the rear cylinder to get less than a fair share of air/fuel mixture. At idle, it would only have enough mixture to fire maybe every second or third power stroke, resulting in the traditional raggedy idle. At small throttle openings, both cylinders fired every power stroke, but the rear still had a smaller air fuel charge. By the time the throttle was opened enough and the engine turned fast enough to offset the timing differences, the bike was going fast enough to supply plenty of cooling air front and back.
Ok, I'm new around here so I don't intend to offend but I've got to respond.
First, the width argument. On a cruiser like the America with forward controls the width of the fuel tank is the limit for the riders legs. The tank on the America is 19 inches wide at the area above the cylinders which means the cylinders are not a problem. As a matter of fact there is enough room under there to run a couple much larger cylinders without limiting the rider. And there is no large air filter housing sticking out beyond the tank on the right side like a typical V-twin. The Triumph 865 has the added benifit of much stronger crankshaft support with main bearings on both sides of each rod journal.
Second, cooling issues. Comparing an air-cooled parallel twin (Triumph) to an air cooled V-twin (Harley) the significant advantage goes to the parallel twin. As the motorcycle moves cooling air flows around both parallel twin cylinders as equally as possible and the hottest part of the cylinder head (the exhaust port) is facing forward into the air flow. By comparison the V-twin's rear cylinder is tucked out of the air flow and it's exhaust port is facing the rear of the bike. Run a V-twin at speed for a while then get off and check the temperature of each cylinder with an infrared thermometer. Huge difference. As a bonus the parallel twin keeps both hot exhaust pipes as far away as possible from the rider.
The results? On the air cooled V-twin the design of the engine causes the cylinders to produce unbalanced power because of significant diferences in operating temperature and usually unequal exhaust and intake routing. Balance is key to engine durability and power output. But if all you want is a lopey sound and vibration you cant beat the Harley.
Harley had the opportunity and certainly the resources to re-engineer their signature air cooled V-twin engine to be a best-in-class contender but they let Victory beat them to it.
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: v-twin
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,839 Likes: 3
Loquacious
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OP
Loquacious
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,839 Likes: 3 |
my point exactly!! thank you. i know there are liquid cooled v's and thats understandable as they have a tendency to last and the design of BMW and moto guzzi's are right on but the v design of the hd is outdated and not worth the price. i mean i know guys that bought their shovels back in the 70's that still have them, they tear them down and rebuild them every yr but they still have them and then i think about my 72 Daytona with 112k mi and that it still has the original bottom end pistons and rings, i cant help but laugh at those friends that bought their shovel's when i bought my Triumph and they thought i was stupid for not getting hd. i was just talking to one of those guy's the other day and thats kinda what prompted me to start this post after he was shocked to here about my 72 and the lack of engine rebuild i have done when he has to rebuild his every yr or so and only gets to ride a few months a yr as he lives in mi. hahahahaha i think he is thinking about going to detroit and looking at the new Triumph's hahahahahaha
ENJOY!!!!! NEWT!!!!!
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Re: v-twin
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,937
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,937 |
"i know guys that bought their shovels back in the 70's that still have them, they tear them down and rebuild them every yr"  We certainly run in different circles, cause I don't know ANYONE like this. Matter of fact, One of the Outlaws riders I know has 115k (this was three years ago) on his basically stock bike. It's an '03.
And you may see me tonight
With an illegal smile
J. Prine
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Re: v-twin
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,243 Likes: 64
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,243 Likes: 64 |
My 72 Daytona and my 64 Norton both are stock bore and original bottom end. My 66 TR6C has had 3 top ends but still has the original bottom end,but, that bike has been ridden all over the country west to Wyoming, north into Canada, south to Louisiana and Florida, Sturgis,Daytona, Niagara, Madi Gras, the list goes on. I never did understand how the HD big end rod bearing lasted with that one split rod and shared journal.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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