 Electrical blues
|
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 525
Adjunct
|
OP
Adjunct
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 525 |
It’s my turn for electrical issues. Over the last several weeks, I’ve noticed a problem with flickering lights (Headlight/driving lights and speedo/tacho) that has gotten worse. Researching various threads on that, my best guess is I’ve either got a problem with my regulator/rectifier or my stator.
Complicating matters, my sidestand switch has been acting up also. With the sidestand down and choke pulled for fast idle, the engine has been cutting out and recovering in a roughly 1 second cycle. With no choke/slow idle, I have no problem. If I put the side stand up, I have no problem. Cracking the throttle with no choke and the sidestand down will trigger the cutout. I have been ignoring this because if the sidestand is up, I have no problem.
Further complicating matters, I relocated my battery. I pushed things around and may have screwed something up then. Yesterday, when moving components around so I could get to the battery for some readings, I see that the diode appears to have melted at the tip. Maybe where I had pushed up against, vibrations or friction caused a ground? Not really sure, but the tip appears to have melted a bit.
The voltage readings I got at the battery (new in 2010) when the bike was running, seemed low.
Ignition off 12.3
Ignition/lights on 11.8
Started, Idle 12.4
Rev till lights flutter varies. 12.0-12.4
Turn off ignition slight spike to 12.7 then drop to 12.3
If I turn off my running lights, each of the voltage levels when running rise @ a half volt.
I tried the following for troubleshooting
1) Removed, checked all fuses for corrosion and reseated
2) Checked/tightened battery terminals.
3) Cleaned reattached main engine ground
4) Re seated all connections in headlight bucket
I ordered a sidestand switch and a R/R from pinwall. They will get here Tuesday. They did not have a diode for an 05 America, so I will try to get that from the dealer tomorrow. I am really hoping that one of these 3 is the problem and the issue is not the stator. I looked at the manual, and that really looks to be a pain to replace.
|
|
|
Re: Electrical blues
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,419
Oil Expert
|
|
Oil Expert
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,419 |
Sounds like your battery is stuffed. If the best you get fully charged rested voltage is 12.3v then it's only holding a 30-40% charge. Lead acid batteries will not operate well at that level. There may well be other issues that have resulted in the shortened life of your battery. Download this PDF from Yuasa about testing your OEM sealed VLRA battery. Note the charge percentages x voltage table. Lead acid batteries don't like going this low - don't ask me how I know.
Last edited by foglefar; 06/11/2011 8:59 AM.
|
|
|
Re: Electrical blues
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 75
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 75 |
Don't believe it's the battery, Rich ...... Sounds definitely like either R/R or Stator failure - although sometimes can be as simple as the stator connector burned, which is not uncommon. One way or another those voltages while running indicate at least one phase is down. Follow diagostic here - http://www.triumphrat.net/speed-triple-f...or-upgrade.htmlI personally would recommend against re-installing another OEM type SCR R/R - the FH008 Honda units are good choice for the Triumph Twins with the connectors reworked accordingly. I just read your cutting out issue again - not the side-stand switch. The side-stand switch only comes into play when the bike is in gear; if in neutral it should have no effect, up or down. However since raising the sidestand 'fixes' the issue, it actually points to the neutral switch being the culprit. Can you by chance see you Neutral light go out when the issue happens? i.e. the bike needs EITHER a) Bike in Neutral - side-stand in either position b) Bike in gear - side-stand must be up. Also, diode only affects ability to start - has no effect on ability to run.
Last edited by DEcosse; 06/13/2011 10:02 PM.
|
|
|
Re: Electrical blues
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,419
Oil Expert
|
|
Oil Expert
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,419 |
Quote:
Don't believe it's the battery, Rich ......
OK the battery is just suffering the consequences but at 12.3v rested it's not very healthy anymore.
Cheers, Richard
~~~~~~~~~~~~
09 America, Staintune Pipes, K&N, Breathe, Hagon Nitros, AI & O2 removed, tune 20184 (modified), MTX-L a/f gauge
|
|
|
Re: Electrical blues
|
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 525
Adjunct
|
|
OP
Adjunct
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 525 |
I dont really think its the battery either. Even after having this problem for a week, and starting the bike multiple time while running various troubleshooting scenarios, it seemed strong starting the bike. When I put it on the charger, it showed a full charge after half an hour.
I only mentioned the side stand because I had several things going on at once. If I raise the side stand, that issue goes away. The neutral light does not appear to flicker when I experiance that issue with the stand down. I am replacing that switch, but doubt it will affect the main issue which is flickering lights/voltages.
I have the sidestand switch and R/R coming from Pinwall. They should be here Tuesday or Wednesday. I am really hoping its the R/R. Replacing the stator looks like more work than I feel comfortable doing on my own.
As far as the diode, I dont know what that actually does. I had it pulled out, but the bike still started. I took it down to the shop, and they were not sure what it did either. They took a picture of the part and were going to try to get some more info from someone else in the organization. This is the one in the harness near the starter relay, not the one under the tank. For any of you that have the triumph service manual #T3859909 , this appears to be number 15 on pages 16.60 and 16.61.
I'll post a follow up after replacing these 2 parts.
|
|
|
Re: Electrical blues
|
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964
Stickman Yogi
|
|
Stickman Yogi
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964 |
If it does turn out to be the stator as it was when my bike had a charging issue, it's not as that hard to replace. I too felt apprehensive but found it quite easy with that added bonus that I got to check/adjust the pick up coil. Honestly, it's an easy swap... especially with a bit of coaching from here.
Live to love, love to live.
|
|
|
Re: Electrical blues
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 75
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 75 |
Quote:
...As far as the diode, I dont know what that actually does. I had it pulled out, but the bike still started. I took it down to the shop, and they were not sure what it did either. They took a picture of the part and were going to try to get some more info from someone else in the organization. This is the one in the harness near the starter relay, not the one under the tank...
There is only one diode assembly - are you sure you identified the thing you are talking about as the diode assembly? The starter relay will not operate without the diode assembly plugged in - you must have something else in mind. I am quite intimate & confident of my understanding of the electrical system schematic - however my first-hand knowledge of the physical location of some components on the America or Speedmaster is limited.
Can you share the picture or identify which colour wires are/were connected to it?
I recognized you were not saying the ss switch has anything to do with the lights flickering/low voltage - however in regard to that issue you mention of it cutting out (which is most certainly unrelated to the charging failure), your logic is reversed;
if it does not cut out with side-stand raised, but does with it down, that definitely points to the neutral switch, not the side-stand switch.
To the contrary, it actually proves the side-stand switch is working, since if closed (raised) it enables the Igniter which should otherwise already be enabled by the Neutral Switch - with the sidestand closed it does not care what the neutral switch is doing (since this is the mode for normal riding in gear!)
So you are simply over-riding the ill-effect of a poor neutral switch with the side-stand up.
If the neutral light remains on while the problem is overcome by raising the ss then the problem would potentially be poor connectivity of the neutral signal on the Igniter, at the connector itself.
(Do you have stock Igniter or Procom?)
Going back to the stator for a moment: the simplest test is just to unplug the stator and measure resistance between any one of the three terminals in the connector (end that goes back to the stator, NOT the R/R) and engine ground - that should be open circuit, infinite resistance.
If you measure short (zero ohms) then your stator is 100% to be bad.
Conversely, if 'open', not absolute guarantee is good, but high probabilty it is OK.
As mentioned earlier, inspect that connection for signs of arcing/burning while you are it.
Last edited by DEcosse; 06/14/2011 3:27 AM.
|
|
|
Re: Electrical blues
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1
Worn Saddle
|
|
Worn Saddle
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1 |
Quote:
As far as the diode, I dont know what that actually does. I had it pulled out, but the bike still started. I took it down to the shop, and they were not sure what it did either. They took a picture of the part and were going to try to get some more info from someone else in the organization. This is the one in the harness near the starter relay, not the one under the tank. For any of you that have the triumph service manual #T3859909 , this appears to be number 15 on pages 16.60 and 16.61.
I think maybe you 're referring to the thermostat switch for the carb heaters...located on the air box under the starter solenoid and not the diode pack in the wiring harness that regulates the starting circuit.
And before you go too far disassembling stuff chasing gremlins what is the condition of your connector between the R/R and the fuse box? That's not the best connector nor the best location and corrosion can easily kill a good ground path.
|
|
|
Re: Electrical blues
|
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 525
Adjunct
|
|
OP
Adjunct
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 525 |
Ken and Ed,
Thank you both for your input, Ive learned a lot!
Regarding what I called the diode. You were both right, it was not the diode pack. I called it a diode because thats what I found it described as at Pinwall when I went through pictures in their listings. But I just got of the phone with the dealer and Oldroadie nailed it - its the carb heater switch. I also found out from the dealer that it is interchangeable with all of the other carbed Bonnevilles.
I will be checking the connection to the R/R and also the resistance on the stator tonight. That was a connection I didn't check and in hindsight it should have been on the list of first things to check.
For the sideswitch issue. That makes perfect sense. I'll check the connections at the ignitor (procomm). Its intermittant, so it easily could be a poor connection.
Keith, Hopefully I wont need to replace the stator, but your comment makes me feel a bit better about the prospect.
Thanks again to all with advice!
Carl.
|
|
|
Re: Electrical blues
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 75
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 75 |
What's the latest Carl - any progress?
|
|
|
 Re: Electrical blues
|
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 525
Adjunct
|
|
OP
Adjunct
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 525 |
I got the new R/R from pinwall Wednesday. My son had baseball playoffs, so the box sat on the counter. Had Scouts tonight, but afterword I plugged in the new R/R. Instead of flickering, I have a slight dimmining of the lights now, but the voltages when I rev it up are worse than before. It looks more and more like its the stator. I did see a post somewhere that said which pins to test in the plug, and what the appropriate voltages would be directly. I have to find that to verify. Will do that this weekend. The next round of the playoffs are Friday night, but Saturday I will definitely work on the bike.
|
|
|
Re: Electrical blues
|
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964
Stickman Yogi
|
|
Stickman Yogi
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964 |
Carl, underneath the seat there is a plastic cover and under that cover is a connector with 3 yellow wires coming directly from the stator. With the engine running test the voltage (set your multimeter to AC) across all three possible wire combinations. You should get a reading of 60-70 volts as I recall. Picture of connector under seat.  No point going into a 'how-to' on swapping out the stator until you know for sure it's the culprit but I just want to reiterate it's an easy repair. Btw... if you do find you need one there's a used one from Pinwall from a Thruxton for $40.
Live to love, love to live.
|
|
|
Re: Electrical blues
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 75
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 75 |
Before you start it:
First, that connector above is the one I wanted you to inspect to look for any signs of burning/damage
(also - how did the connector the R/R plugged into look?)
Next, at same connector, do the test I outlined earlier - measure the resistance between any of the three pins (does not matter which one) to engine ground - should be 'open' i.e. infinite resistance.
If that is good (i.e. not short) then you can start it;
with meter on AC Volts measure from pins 1-2, 2-3 and 3-1 in turn (doesn't matter which you call 1 etc)
All three should the same at any given rpm - at idle expect ~ 20V. As you increase rpm the voltage should rise, but again, if you fix the rpm (say 4000 rpm), all three should be the same - the absolute numbers are less important, that they are balanced is what indicates one leg is not 'down'.
Again, if you get a 'short' in the first (resistance)test, don't even bother starting it.
|
|
|
Re: Electrical blues
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 75
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 75 |
c'mon Carl - this is driving me crazy waiting to see what the issue is 
|
|
|
Re: Electrical blues
|
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964
Stickman Yogi
|
|
Stickman Yogi
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964 |
Quote:
c'mon Carl - this is driving me crazy waiting to see what the issue is
Me too!
Live to love, love to live.
|
|
|
Re: Electrical blues
|
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 525
Adjunct
|
|
OP
Adjunct
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 525 |
I ran into problems trying to get the additional tests done. I have a friend who said he would take a look at it Saturday.
|
|
|
Re: Electrical blues
|
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 525
Adjunct
|
|
OP
Adjunct
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 525 |
We finally got together to run the tests, and here are the results; Quote:
testing the connector with 3 yellow wires coming directly from the stator. With the engine running test the voltage (set your multimeter to AC) across all three possible wire combinations. You should get a reading of 60-70 volts as I recall.
The voltage we measured at 4000rpm was 35 across each of the 3 possible wire combinations. Is 60/70 where it should be?
Quote:
that connector above is the one I wanted you to inspect to look for any signs of burning/damage
(also - how did the connector the R/R plugged into look?)
No signs of damage or burning. Connecters were all nicely greased.
Quote:
Next, at same connector, do the test I outlined earlier - measure the resistance between any of the three pins (does not matter which one) to engine ground - should be 'open' i.e. infinite resistance.
They all had infinite resistance
Quote:
If that is good (i.e. not short) then you can start it;
with meter on AC Volts measure from pins 1-2, 2-3 and 3-1 in turn (doesn't matter which you call 1 etc)
All three should the same at any given rpm - at idle expect ~ 20V. As you increase rpm the voltage should rise, but again, if you fix the rpm (say 4000 rpm), all three should be the same - the absolute numbers are less important, that they are balanced is what indicates one leg is not 'down'.
- Again, the voltage measured was 35 at all of the combinations.
Bill wanted me to mention a couple of other things.
- With that connecter unplugged, the bike ran smooth. With it pugged together, it was a bit choppy.
- he said if already running, the bike should be able to run with the positive disconnected from the battery. While it would idle, reving it caused it to stall.
|
|
|
Re: Electrical blues
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,099
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,099 |
Hey Carl,
I'm no expert, but I would not take the battery out of the
loop with the bike running, fry the cdi comes to mind.
Uncle Charlie
|
|
|
Re: Electrical blues
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,063 Likes: 8
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,063 Likes: 8 |
Agreed.
My brother in law started his outboard boat equiped with a 70 horsepower Johnson. Did not have his battery for the boat so he started it with his auto and drove it without the battery. He fried every coil in the boat within 10 minutes of starting it up. Power tilt, ignition coils, tach, even the warning bulbs burnt.
Don't disconnect the battery.
12 Rocket Roadster
03 Bonneville America
69 BSA Firebird Scrambler
73 Yamaha TX 750
|
|
|
Re: Electrical blues
|
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 525
Adjunct
|
|
OP
Adjunct
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 525 |
Definitely will not try it again. It idled @ 5 seconds, tried reving it and it died. After reconnecting the battery, all symptoms were exactly the same as before.
|
|
|
Re: Electrical blues
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1
Worn Saddle
|
|
Worn Saddle
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1 |
Any chance you could find a known good battery to sub in the circuit? And, what was the voltage output from the regulator?
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
|
|
|
Re: Electrical blues
|
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 525
Adjunct
|
|
OP
Adjunct
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 525 |
I'll try that next. My friend who did the tests rides a bike.
|
|
|
Re: Electrical blues
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 75
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 75 |
You cannot run with the battery disconnected - The R/R requires to be connected to the battery to give an output.
The bike dieing is the correct repsonse. Nothing wrong there.
I'm actually surprised it idled at all - typically shuts off immediately
If all three phases are equal voltage and it is NOT short to engine case, then there is no problem with the stator.
Revisit the R/R again
You can even check your original first
Need to measure between each of the three input (stator) terminals, to each of the output (+ & -) terminals.
None of these should be short.
Last edited by DEcosse; 07/01/2011 3:00 PM.
|
|
|
Re: Electrical blues
|
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 525
Adjunct
|
|
OP
Adjunct
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 525 |
It looks like the KISS principle applies here. Keep it simple stupid, with me being stupid... Foglefar made the very first reply on this thread, and now it looks as if he was right. If I had considered the battery right off the bat, I might have saved myself a lot of grief. I pulled the battery and put in my freinds battery. Reving it up, the lights brighten and then stay steady - no flickering. (did not have a voltage meter at the time, so did not measure actual voltages). He picks up my battery, pulls the cap off and looks in the cells. Sees nothing, so he tips it a bit, then a bit more, then completely upside down. Nothing. Bone dry. Wtf happened to the acid, I dont know.  My assumption at the beginning of all this was that the battery was good because I bought it last summer. Did not have time today, but I will pick up a new battery tomorrow. I'll post a follow up in a couple of days.
|
|
|
Re: Electrical blues
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,419
Oil Expert
|
|
Oil Expert
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,419 |
 for you finding the problem. for me being right at least once on this forum. Actually, I suspect that your battery died as a result of deep cycles (severe depletion) probably caused by something else, but once it got to less than about 70% charge it began to fail and contributed to the issue. Lead acid batteries don't like more than a couple of deep cycles and need to be kept at about 80% charge or above to have any sort of life/reliability. I have recently learnt this the hard way. Get a Shorai LiFePo (Lithium Iron Phosphate) battery and you won't look back.
Cheers, Richard
~~~~~~~~~~~~
09 America, Staintune Pipes, K&N, Breathe, Hagon Nitros, AI & O2 removed, tune 20184 (modified), MTX-L a/f gauge
|
|
|
Re: Electrical blues
|
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 525
Adjunct
|
|
OP
Adjunct
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 525 |
|
|
|
Re: Electrical blues
|
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964
Stickman Yogi
|
|
Stickman Yogi
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964 |
Are you prepared with a new gasket for the cover too, Carl? Make sure the bike is resting on the kickstand (leaning away from you) when you pull the cover. That way you'll lose only drops of oil, if anything. Other than that it's an easy task to get at the stator. While there might as well check the pickup coil gap... it should be set to .8mm. Also, do a visual inspection of the existing stator. You should see one or more burnt coils if it is faulty and therefore shorting out.
Swapping out the stator is a relatively easy thing to do. I know I felt intimidated at the task when I did mine, but looking back I had nothing to worry about.
Live to love, love to live.
|
|
|
Re: Electrical blues
|
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 75
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 75 |
If the regulator fails it can overcharge the battery causing the acid to boil out.
There are some really good comprehensive testing procedures on the net for regs. But be warned, they can be tricky to analyse.
Good luck
Softens your hands while you do the dishes - You're soaking in it!!!!
|
|
|
Re: Electrical blues
|
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 525
Adjunct
|
|
OP
Adjunct
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 525 |
Its been a busy summer, and I simply have not had the time to work on the bike. I hooked up the battery tender and plugged it in every night. That was generally good for @50 miles. Finally this weekend I was able to get up to Pat's (Dinqua) house and he did some troubleshooting. Ed (Biker) also came over and we spent a few hours going over everything with a fine tooth comb. Finally we used Pat's bike as a doner bike and swapped out the stator. Still the same results and everyone was scratching their head. Finally Ed started pulling on wires and checking connections and when he pulled on the ground wire, it came off in his hand. It turned out to be just like Friar John's problem earlier this spring, the splice I put in the ground wire when I relocated the battery. The crimp connectors I put on didnt hold up. I had a very poor and/or intermittant ground. Pat did the job right, soldering the connections and shrink wrapping it. Since then its been charging at 14 volts and the lights have not flickered at all. Rode through a full tank of gas and it started up after that with no problem at all. Thank you Pat and Ed!  Its a good lesson learned, and especially usefull for all you people that are doing the battery relocation. When you splice in some wire to extend the ground, do it right and solder it!
|
|
|
Re: Electrical blues
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,823
Learned Hand
|
|
Learned Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,823 |
Carl very glad..we just got you back riding in the wind.. Ed 
|
|
|
|
|
