 Shims on TBS needles?
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I am currently running Thruxton needles with no shims,Epcos,K&N filter and bell-mouth( no idea what jets are in it,I bought it used and it was re jetted at that time). It runs well but I am trying to get a little better mileage without losing performance. I just got a set of TBS needles to try and wondered what shims (if any) others are using(as a starting point).
Thoughts?
Bill.
"I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered."
-George Best
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Re: Shimms on TBS needles?
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Joined: Feb 2008
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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No shims; no need for them on mine, as the TBS needles run slightly rich on mine as is.
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Re: Shimms on TBS needles?
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Joined: Dec 2006
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Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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I've never heard of anyone Putting shims on TBS needles either. In fact whilst the use of the tbs's isn't new, there hasn't been much info on there benefits until lately. Certainly not a lot I've read about anyway. What I can say though is this, the Thruxtons for my cam inferior 05 Speedie were too rich but geez I liked the mid range when I had them in. Just too thirsty though. So I put the oem needles back on with a shim. What a dissapointment that was. Then I tried the tbs's and felt like goldilocks (been called worse but give it a go if it mashes ya spuds  ) My fuel economy changed dramatically for the better too so mine are staying on until I jump into the deep end when the moths are released from my wallet  To be honest though, the idea of putting a shim on the tbs needles never even crossed my mind cos in my view I'd almost replicating the Thruxtons.  Good luck stacka
Staintune Pipes, K&N Pods, 45 pilots, TBS needles and 145 mains.
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Re: Shimms on TBS needles?
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Joined: Feb 2005
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I am running 2 shims on TBS needles today. But according to my Innovate Air/Fuel gauge it is way to lean. Going to remove them this weekend.
'06 SM with T100/America Wheels (D&D's, 10.5 to 1 Wiseco pistons, TTP Igniter +3, K&N PODS, 150 x 40, FZ1 springs & TBS needles w/3 shims)
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Re: Shimms on TBS needles?
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,227 Likes: 62
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
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I didn't like the TBS needles, seemed too rich all by themselves on my bike and went back to stock. I didn't put those on a dyno though.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Shimms on TBS needles?
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1
Second Wind
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Second Wind
Joined: Sep 2010
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Quote:
I am running 2 shims on TBS needles today. But according to my Inovate Air/Fuel gauge it is way to lean. Going to remove them this weekend.
Removing the shims will make you more lean. You need bigger jets.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: Shims on TBS needles?
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1
Second Wind
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Second Wind
Joined: Sep 2010
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Quote:
I am currently running Thruxton needles with no shims,Epcos,K&N filter and bell-mouth( no idea what jets are in it,I bought it used and it was re jetted at that time). It runs well but I am trying to get a little better mileage without losing performance. I just got a set of TBS needles to try and wondered what shims (if any) others are using(as a starting point).
Thoughts?
don't shim that puts you close to the same as you have. With the tbs needles you will be leaner.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: Shimms on TBS needles?
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 209
Adjunct
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Quote:
Quote:
I am running 2 shims on TBS needles today. But according to my Inovate Air/Fuel gauge it is way to lean. Going to remove them this weekend.
Removing the shims will make you more lean. You need bigger jets.
What ^ he said - but with one exception. My WOT is fine - between 13-14 to 1. My problem is mid range. With the TBS needles I am getting 15-16 to 1.
So I retract my earlier statement, and fall back on the "every bike is different" clause.
This weekend, will try another shim (3 total) and see what that does.
'06 SM with T100/America Wheels (D&D's, 10.5 to 1 Wiseco pistons, TTP Igniter +3, K&N PODS, 150 x 40, FZ1 springs & TBS needles w/3 shims)
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Re: Shimms on TBS needles?
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Joined: Feb 2008
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Quote:
...What ^ he said - but with one exception. My WOT is fine - between 13-14 to 1. My problem is mid range. With the TBS needles I am getting 15-16 to 1. ...
"Mid-range" means what to you specifically, & at what throttle opening?
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Re: Shimms on TBS needles?
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 96
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with my gutted stock pipes and k&n filter (airbox intact) the tbs needles really gave it a kick from just over 2k, but it was blubbery rich. when i cut the airbox bottom out and change to better pipes, should work perfectly.
ride when I can, work when I have to
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Re: Shimms on TBS needles?
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Joined: May 2008
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Member
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oh, that's hitting it wot from about 2k, is there any other throttle opening?
ride when I can, work when I have to
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Re: Shimms on TBS needles?
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Quote:
Quote:
...What ^ he said - but with one exception. My WOT is fine - between 13-14 to 1. My problem is mid range. With the TBS needles I am getting 15-16 to 1. ...
"Mid-range" means what to you specifically, & at what throttle opening?
1/4 throttle to 3/4 throttle give or take..
My idle is around 13.2 - 13.4
Coming out of idle it tends to climb to 13.5 - 13.8 (about 1/8 throttle).
But as soon as I roll past the 1/4 throttle mark - off it goes to 15 - 16 to 1.
'06 SM with T100/America Wheels (D&D's, 10.5 to 1 Wiseco pistons, TTP Igniter +3, K&N PODS, 150 x 40, FZ1 springs & TBS needles w/3 shims)
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Re: Shimms on TBS needles?
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Joined: Feb 2008
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Does to spike to 16 & stay there, or spike & drop? Just for kicks I suggest trying the OEM slide springs & see what happens to the AFR during roll-on; the DJ springs are pretty light.
My carbs have TBS needles & WOT roll-on AFR will dip to 12 (sometimes lower, sometimes higher) in the 4-6k range...
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Re: Shimms on TBS needles?
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Spike to 16 then drop to 15 or so.
I wish I had the OEM springs. My inventory is DJ, Kaw GPZ and Yam FZ1 in springs. And have DJ, TBS and Thruxton needles.
The bike came used with the DJ setup.
'06 SM with T100/America Wheels (D&D's, 10.5 to 1 Wiseco pistons, TTP Igniter +3, K&N PODS, 150 x 40, FZ1 springs & TBS needles w/3 shims)
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Re: Shimms on TBS needles?
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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So what you are saying is the lighter DJ spring allows the slide to open too fast causing a lean condition but even after the main catches up you stay lean just not as bad?
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Shimms on TBS needles?
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,671 Likes: 15
Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Quote:
...The bike came used with the DJ setup.
You can order OEM springs from any dealer or from Bikebandit (great name for them). FZ1 or GPZ springs will NOT work & play well with drilled air ports. Any idea what size the air ports currently are?
And 1/4 - 3/4 is a pretty wide throttle range. The TBS (N3RF) needles are not causing that problem. Something else is going on, & from my perspective it is most likely a combination of light springs & larger air transfer ports. I think OEM springs will solve your problem, or at the very least improve it.
I also think the issue is aggrevated by the 42 pilots & small pilot screw settings. The pilot screw does not control everthing coming out of the pilot jet, it only controls 1 of 3 or so pilot orifices. It's common for perfomance motors with good cams to idle in the 12 AFR range. No biggie to sacrafice a "perfect" idle for a "better" cruise. If it were my bike I'd go with 45 pilots and adjust the pilot screw for a 12 AFR idle (on a fully warm motor).
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Re: Shimms on TBS needles?
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Joined: Feb 2005
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The ports are stock - not been drilled. It rained most of the day. Will have to wait until tomorrow to test.
'06 SM with T100/America Wheels (D&D's, 10.5 to 1 Wiseco pistons, TTP Igniter +3, K&N PODS, 150 x 40, FZ1 springs & TBS needles w/3 shims)
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Re: Shimms on TBS needles?
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Joined: Feb 2008
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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How did you determine/verify - did you measure the ports?
How about the float heights?
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Re: Shimms on TBS needles?
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ok,so no shims on TBS needles with my setup,got it.
Bill.
"I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered."
-George Best
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Re: Shimms on TBS needles?
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,671 Likes: 15
Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Bill' the N3RF needles perform similarly to the NBZT's, however they run about a full step leaner. Should be just what you're looking for, or close to it.
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Re: Shimms on TBS needles?
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Quote:
How did you determine/verify - did you measure the ports?
How about the float heights?
Used a drill bit (no did not drill it, just used it as a gauge).
Float heights are stock too. At one point I lowered them to 16mm and raised them back to 17mm (in testing what it would do), before I installed the Innovate Gauge.
Went with the Thruxton Needles and Yam springs (following your idea that the DJ springs are to soft) over the weekend. Seems to be more in line with ideal, maybe a tad rich. Added a shim to the Thruxton needles but have not had a chance to ride it since.
'06 SM with T100/America Wheels (D&D's, 10.5 to 1 Wiseco pistons, TTP Igniter +3, K&N PODS, 150 x 40, FZ1 springs & TBS needles w/3 shims)
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Re: Shimms on TBS needles?
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Joined: Feb 2008
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Quote:
...drill bit (no did not drill it, just used it as a gauge...
What size drill bit?
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Re: Shimms on TBS needles?
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Quote:
Quote:
...drill bit (no did not drill it, just used it as a gauge...
What size drill bit?
Frankly I do not remember. Whatever one that was close to 2.5mm - to let me know the holes were still stock.
'06 SM with T100/America Wheels (D&D's, 10.5 to 1 Wiseco pistons, TTP Igniter +3, K&N PODS, 150 x 40, FZ1 springs & TBS needles w/3 shims)
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Re: Shimms on TBS needles?
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Joined: Feb 2008
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Well, it matters, because even going from 2.5 to 2.8 mm (actually 2.78 mm) made a huge difference.
The reason that I ask is if you used a 3/32 drill bit the shaft should make it through a stock port; a 7/64 (or larger) would not. And the drill bit would have to be undersize to fit in the port, so it is also possible that the hole is larger than stock if a 7/64 bit won't fit.
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Re: Shimms on TBS needles?
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Joined: Dec 2006
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Ken, I know this sounds really picky but can you just call the needles either oem, tbs or thruxtons. It does my head in trying to work out which is what. 
Staintune Pipes, K&N Pods, 45 pilots, TBS needles and 145 mains.
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Re: Shimms on TBS needles?
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Joined: Feb 2008
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Quote:
Ken, I know this sounds really picky...
Yup, it does, & no, for reasons already stated. 
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Re: Shimms on TBS needles?
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Quote:
Well, it matters, because even going from 2.5 to 2.8 mm (actually 2.78 mm) made a huge difference.
The reason that I ask is if you used a 3/32 drill bit the shaft should make it through a stock port; a 7/64 (or larger) would not. And the drill bit would have to be undersize to fit in the port, so it is also possible that the hole is larger than stock if a 7/64 bit won't fit.
Well then, the next time I have the slide off I will double check with a 3/32 and 7/64 drill bit.
'06 SM with T100/America Wheels (D&D's, 10.5 to 1 Wiseco pistons, TTP Igniter +3, K&N PODS, 150 x 40, FZ1 springs & TBS needles w/3 shims)
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Re: Shimms on TBS needles?
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Joined: Feb 2008
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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If it was drilled out to 3.0mm or 1/8" the 7/64 bit bore should fit.
I have personally not seen anyone drill the port larger than 1/8", & IMO that's way more than these things need.
A little bit (sorry) goes a long way!
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Re: Shimms on TBS needles?
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Joined: May 2010
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Check Pants
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Check Pants
Joined: May 2010
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I got a set of metric bits on Flea Bay from 2mm to 3mm , in increments of .02mm for $10 and a couple more to ship, would suffice to be the gauges you desire
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Re: Shimms on TBS needles?
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Joined: Feb 2008
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Cool, however I forgot to add that when dealing with relatively small dimensions such as these the bit bores should also be measured to determine what they actually are v. what the stamping or engraving may show.
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Re: Shimms on TBS needles?
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Joined: May 2010
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Check Pants
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Check Pants
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I agree, all the bits miked out as listed, too damn small to read the size on them
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Re: Shimms on TBS needles?
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Information for those who will follow this thread in the future.
After installing TBS needles with no shims, based on a earlier statement in this thread, I found via the air/fuel gauge a very lean running motor. Ratios started to climb to 18 to 1 before I backed out of the throttle.
'06 SM with T100/America Wheels (D&D's, 10.5 to 1 Wiseco pistons, TTP Igniter +3, K&N PODS, 150 x 40, FZ1 springs & TBS needles w/3 shims)
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Re: Shimms on TBS needles?
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Joined: Feb 2008
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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