 Radiation
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
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OP
Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821 |
A little chart to help with perspective:  Find it here.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Radiation
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,971
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,971 |
Thanks for posting that Bill An example of the power of fear and hysteria as associated with nuclear power Many (including me) still believe nuclear power can solve a lot of our energy woes. Saying goodbye to our 80 year playing all ends against the middle involvement in the middle east would be a refreshing change too. Time will tell.
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Re: Radiation
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1
Second Wind
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Second Wind
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1 |
I agree Bucky. We only use 10 % of our oil for transportation and domestically produce 40% of our total oil consumption. They say that at the rate we consume oil now we have 400 years of oil in our reserves here on our own soil.
Then if we could get our electricity from something other than oil. Including getting most of our homes and small buisness including the malls and other shop on to solar with back up from the main grid. The only thing you would have solely depending on the main grid would be infrastructure and large manufacturing. Then if we converted the main grid to nuclear, Hydro, wind, and large solar plants. We could drive our cars and ride our motorcycles for ......well nearly forever. Plus reduce emissions to close to 90%. Without creating a huge battery disposal problem.
Just try not to build the nuclear plants on fault lines or under a volcano we should be able to do it realitively safe. Even oil fire power plants are quite dangerous.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: Radiation
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,527
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,527 |
Yup there is a great deal of "information" floating around...most due to the need by news outlets to fill time slots with something they feel will draw ratings and hold interest.
of course if you listen to all of it you may become "confused" as they all tell a different story.
I agree we must go forward with developing all alternative energy sources including native supplies of oil in all of the "sacred cow" locations.
"Proud to be an Infidel" ... "100% pure American Jingoist"
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Re: Radiation
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,335
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,335 |
Using all forms of energy is needed, including Nuclear. The only problem with our Nuclear industry is that they don't recycle the spent fuel. In Europe they do recycle the spent fuel, which greatly reduces the waste associated with Nuclear plants.
The need for oil will be here a long time. It took over 80 years for us to get so dependent on it, and it will take at least 50 years to reduce it. Again look at Europe, they have been spending over $5.00 a gallon since the early 80's. The only thing they have changed is to make their average car smaller and more fuel efficient, plus spend a lot of money on mass transit. Which works better over there because everything isn't so spread out like we have in the States.
Thanks for the radiation chart!!
Tom
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin, US author, diplomat, inventor, physicist, politician, & printer (1706 - 1790)
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Re: Radiation
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
I have one question which somehow during this whole thing seems unasked by the news outlets and thus unanswered by the nuclear energy proponents and experts: If there weren't already(and it appears as if there weren't), why weren't there permanent backup fossil fuel powered generators built at these plants which after the loss of main power could have kicked in and continued to pump cooling water into the cores?
I mean, once again, IF these backup generators weren't built at these plants, that would seem a pretty dumb design to me!
And, IF there WERE these types of generators at these plants, then WHY didn't the process work?
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Radiation
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
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New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
Locopony, I not sure we use any significant amount of oil to produce electricity. About 50% of a barrel of oil is used for fuel, the rest for lubes and plastics etc. No deaths have occurred from nuclear plants in almost a half century of production. Candles have killed more. Radiation is a scary thing, mostly because of ignorance. Hold a Geiger counter next to a banana or walk though any granite building with one ( a Geiger counter not a banana ). 
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Radiation
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
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New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
Dwight, there were back up generators on site. The protective sea wall was breached by the tsunami,destroying the generators. I heard a nuke engineer on one of the news outlets say that had they had installed them on the top of the building the generator would have survived. Remember I heard it on the news so it must be  true!
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Radiation
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
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New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
Tcv, we pay the same for oil as Europe. The cost of fuel is basically the same. The consumer price difference at the pump is just the difference in authoritative shake down,taxes.
Also, Europe has a very fine mass transit system, very heavily subsidized like ours. Like you said European land mass is comparatively smaller than ours, but interestingly they have basically the same automobile per capita as the USA has.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Radiation
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Thanks for the answer there, Mac!  Yep, as you and few others have mentioned in this thread, for some reason it seems the news outlets seldom touch of the topic of design elements in these sorts of disasters, and seem to want to stick to the "human element" in their reporting. I guess they figure that talk of engineering and design would be way above most of their viewers' heads and that said "human element" will grab more viewers. (...so they can, of course, have their sponsors sell more beer and Viagra to the general public!!!)  Yep, I guess those few of us who really want to know the ins and outs and the possible causes of these kinds of things will just have to do what we ALWAYS do....wait three years afterward and until "Frontline" does a program on it!!!! 
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Radiation
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7 |
Thanks Bill. Perspective, an antidote to the hysteria and hyperbole we're seeing so much of recently.
We need to apply this kind of reasoning to the rest of the "Threats to mankind" being promoted and consider the agendas of those promoting unreasonable fears and anxiety.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Radiation
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Yeah Larry, but like I said, HOW the heck are they EVER gonna sell all that beer and Viagra IF they stop tryin' to reach the general public by means of fear and anxiety...HUH???!!! (...answer me THAT, ol' buddy!!!)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Radiation
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 18,825
"Lighten up, Francis."
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"Lighten up, Francis."
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 18,825 |
Apparently there was a run on iodine radiation sickness pills in Bozeman, MT.
Yes. Bozeman.
Idiots.
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Re: Radiation
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7 |
Quote:
Yeah Larry, but like I said, HOW the heck are they EVER gonna sell all that beer and Viagra IF they stop tryin' to reach the general public by means of fear and anxiety...HUH???!!!
(...answer me THAT, ol' buddy!!!)
Lust, greed, gluttony and envy. Always worked before
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Radiation
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Okay, as I was sayin' here...in order to sell more beer, Viagra, AND iodine pills, then!!! (...Ya know, I'm startin' to think you guys are tryin' to slow down this friggin' Economy even MORE than it already IS!!!!)  
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Radiation
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1
Second Wind
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Second Wind
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1 |
Aren't iodine pills quite poisonous? Even dangerous with ut a doctor to manage there usage?
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: Radiation
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
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OP
Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821 |
I'll buy beer without any advertising, thank you. (Of course, NOT the heavily advertised swill   )
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Radiation
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Quote:
I'll buy beer without any advertising, thank you.
(Of course, NOT the heavily advertised swill )
Uh huh...suuure Bill?!
Well, MY money's on YOU bein' first in line at your local 7-11 for Budweiser's new line of Iodized Michelob if a radiation cloud ever hits the outskirts of Sin City!!!
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Radiation
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
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OP
Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821 |
Depends on their advertising campaign...............
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Radiation
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Uh huh...SEE?!!!
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Radiation
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,971
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,971 |
Photo diary of Chernobyl http://www.kiddofspeed.com/By Elena, with her trusty steed, a 147 HP Ninja  "The roads are blocked for cars, but not for motorcycles. Good girls go to heaven. Bad ones go to hell. And girls on fast bikes go anywhere they want." How not to do nuclear power   It will take 800 or 1,000 years for the hot spots to clear up, but there are numerous locations with buried plutonium laced chemicals. Trouble is, those who did the burying are mostly dead, and no one knows where all the dumps are. Another fun fact - one pound of plutonium, dispersed equally across the entire earth's land mass, would kill everyone. Off topic, but well worth a look Elena also visited Stalin's Gulag prison camps, where 40 million died http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/kiddofspeed/camps/camps.html
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Re: Radiation
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
Because of, just for example, the high cost of the steam turbine assembly for a nuclear reactor, nuclear power actually costs MORE than solar or wind per megawatt. I am NOT anti nuke but it is very, very expensive power. It seems affordable with temporary tax incentives, etc., but the current technology is riddled with cost issues.
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Re: Radiation
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,060 Likes: 6
Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,060 Likes: 6 |
I'm a fan of of wind generation. We even have a local plant here that makes the blades, with maybe a generator plant coming. But, I was dissapointed to hear, "in the news", that even if we coated the U.S. with wind turbines in all the good places, that would still only provide 10% of the power we need. Bummer.
Fidelis et Fortis
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Re: Radiation
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7 |
Quote:
Because of, just for example, the high cost of the steam turbine assembly for a nuclear reactor, nuclear power actually costs MORE than solar or wind per megawatt. I am NOT anti nuke but it is very, very expensive power. It seems affordable with temporary tax incentives, etc., but the current technology is riddled with cost issues.
I'm curious, does that include the huge taxpayer support for wind and solar? Rather like corn gas, they would never exist without massive subsidies.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Radiation
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1
Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1 |
Quote:
I'm a fan of of wind generation. We even have a local plant here that makes the blades, with maybe a generator plant coming. But, I was dissapointed to hear, "in the news", that even if we coated the U.S. with wind turbines in all the good places, that would still only provide 10% of the power we need. Bummer.
The sun bathes the planet in enough radiation every day to provide all of our needs we just haven't invested enough brain power into figuring out how to harvest it efficiently.
As for 10% of needs, look at the current example: those plants provided 10% of Japan's needs and without them the entire country's manufacturing infrastructure will have to accept rolling blackouts for a few years before they can get back up to speed. Makes 10% look pretty attractive...
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Radiation
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,590
Check Pants
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Check Pants
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,590 |
Quote:
I'm a fan of of wind generation.
The idea of it is attractive. I've heard from folks that even though we have an abundance of wind in central & eastern Montana, in general we lack the infrastructure (Power lines) to get it out of here. Having said that, I've also heard that some ranches are selling "wind rights" for future development. Every once in awhile a freight train of turbines rolls through here headed somewhere west. Then it can become a matter of private land rights versus the neighbours protesting a landscape of giant windmills  .
jh
"It's not what I say that's important, it's what you hear" Red Auerbach
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Re: Radiation
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,459 Likes: 1
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,459 Likes: 1 |
Quote:
Because of, just for example, the high cost of the steam turbine assembly for a nuclear reactor, nuclear power actually costs MORE than solar or wind per megawatt. I am NOT anti nuke but it is very, very expensive power. It seems affordable with temporary tax incentives, etc., but the current technology is riddled with cost issues.
I dont think the cost is with the steam turbine, more with the reactor/boiler, Insurance is kind of expensive so no private company is going to take the risk without government support.
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Re: Radiation
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7 |
Quote:
Quote:
Because of, just for example, the high cost of the steam turbine assembly for a nuclear reactor, nuclear power actually costs MORE than solar or wind per megawatt. I am NOT anti nuke but it is very, very expensive power. It seems affordable with temporary tax incentives, etc., but the current technology is riddled with cost issues.
I dont think the cost is with the steam turbine, more with the reactor/boiler, Insurance is kind of expensive so no private company is going to take the risk without government support.
Much of the cost is caused by litigation and delay. All caused by the same people who whine that it's too expensive.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Radiation
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
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OP
Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821 |
The initial capital cost for a nuclear power plant is high. The fuel not so much comparatively speaking; except for the disposal of the waste.
The decommissioning cost has to be factored in also. They do wear out and get old, then you have a large amount of contaminant to deal with.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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