Bonneville America Forums Forums Technical Forums General Tech 1st valve check

Checked the valve clearance today at 12,500.
My first measurement seems tight:
exhuast .012 .012 .012 .011
intake .009 .008 .007 .006

Considering the exhaust tolerance is .25-.30mm and the intake is .15-.20mm, I'd say they are VERY tight. Not preaching, but you need to take care of this right away.

And not trying to be condescending but are you sure you measured them correctly? She was dead cold, right? As in a 24+ hour cool down?

Yeah, what Bonnyusa said. Also that looks like SAE measurments, which would be in the right neighborhood. If so, get some metric feeler gauges and recheck, instead of trying to covert SAE to metric.

Looks like he is measuring in SAE, I also checked mine today

exhaust .29, .24, .29, .29

intake .22, .23, .16, .13

not too good is it

my way of thinking is that if my dealer had done them right at the 1200km and 2400km service they should be better than that

You nailed it bigbill, SAE gauge. The metric system bites me again. I need to purchase a metric feeler gauge and give it another try. Thanks for setting me straight. The dealer wanted $350 to do the job.

Here's the one I have Mark:



and I got it here:

http://www.mytoolstore.com/kd/kdfeel01.html. What sucks is, the friggin shipping is almost as much as the tool (which is $8).

It is well built and should last you a long time however....

Mark, I can't stress enough the need to have a feeler gauge calibrated primarily in metric units. The SAE ones have a conversion lasered on them but you loose the precision needed to zero in on the exact clearance. Spend the $14.23 at mytoolstore.com. I did way back in August of '03. I tried all the local places that sell gauges and no one had one. No one. Another thing you might buy (to help spread out the shipping cost) is a brass feeler gauge. You need one if you ever adjust your ignition pick up (Hall Effect). That gap is 1mm ±.02mm.

You could chase down one of the tool distributers that you see at garages, Snap-On, Mac, Matco, Cornwell etc. Might save a couple bucks.

Can you just walk up to their truck and buy stuff? I see a Snap On truck in the grocery store parking lot sometimes!

Yes you may. You can also call them and ask where a truck may be. That is how I bought that large allen socket driver for the front spindle.

I walked up to the Matco truck. Talked to the Matco man, he never heard of a meteric feeler gauge. He did know the SAE tool has MM on it. The Matco man looked in his book and no meteric feeler he will check into the gauge for me. Anyone have the backlash gear locking pins? As I look at this project I see the backlash gear and I wondered, Are the locking Pins notched or tappered at one end to seat inside the camshaft gear/backlash gear? I want to try and make locking pins from a metal dowel or maybe use an alan wrench to hold the back lash gear??

mark,
Make your own backlash retainers form a couple screws (look at the pictures in my big bore site) or just use a pair of allen wrenches. No need at all to spend money for the Trump tools here.

Quote:

---

Can you just walk up to their truck and buy stuff?

---

Ever see a businessman who doesn't want to do business?

Try this, if he don't have it, he can order it and save you the shipping.
snap-on metric guage

For those new at wrenching, you only need to know the exact clearence if it is off. To check the valve adjustment, just take the 2 feelers for the upper and lower limits and use them as a go/nogo guage. If the thin one fits easy and the fat one doesn't, your valve shims are just fine.

Dinqua's big bore saga has been very useful, still saving for the Triumph manual. Think theres much room for play between the camshaft and backlash gear? I was concerned if the gears moved a bit with the home made pins it may cause a problem. Does the backlash gear hold tension on the camdrive gear chain. WHY?? I am close to specs using my caveman tools. May close it up and get a couple more rides while I gather some tools. Snap On next for the metric feeler gauge. I see a $58.99 Micro Tork torque wrench from Sear on sale and pick up a T-30 bit. I will try to make some pins.

The backlash gears are there to make the fit between the cam and jackshaft gears tight to reduce noise and timing variations. As long as you keep them lined up close enough that reassembly isn't difficult, you won't have any problems.

Anyone ever taken a pic from Pat's website and sabeled all these things? I mean I kinda know what you are talking about but "backlash gear" etc isn't normal lingo for me...

Benny,

Take a look at this thread:

http://www.bonnevilleamerica.com/forums/...h=true#Post8032

The first pic in this post by beanache shows the backlash gear up against the cam gear and the second shows the locking pins on place.

Sear's has metric feeler gauges sometimes. I picked up a set at sear's a long while back. Don't remember the price.

I called Sears , Autozone blah blah blah said they had the metric in stock. What they meant was they had the standard with metric three digit number stamped on it. Not the same as the metric gauge, the numbers stamped on the standard set need rounded up or down leaving a small varience. I did fall within the tolerances so I am not to concerned right now. When I need to do the adjustment I would like to be a bit more exact. Here is how the standard size and metric size compare.
Standard-Metric
.006 - .15
.007 - .18
.008 - .20
.009 - .23
.010 - .25
.011 - .28
.012 - .31

As you can see the metric is missing increaments using a standard gauge. Not a problem as long as you are within the spec's. Once I fall outside the spec it would be nice to start as close to exact as possible. Not critiacal but nice to know. This is my first experience with an overhead cam. When I took the cam cover off I was not sure what I had. It is starting to come together. Not like the good old push rod tappet days.

Thanks Phil. I also read more closely the big bore stuff last night. Seems to me like checking the valves is simple. Just crack her open, get the cam lobes lined up, and check. CHANGING them however, is MUCH more involved. You have to take all those gears out, eh?

Ok just took a look at Beanache's pics. GREAT pics man!! Much clearer now. Just need to put the pins in and lift out the cams, right? Ok cool. Not so bad... I'm sure it will all make a LOT more sense when I actually crack it open and look.

With the gearbox in 5th gear and the plugs removed, how effective is using the rear wheel or a socket on the front spocket to rotate the engine crank into position for the valve clearance check? Can you easily position the cam drive gear so the line & dot line up between their respective cam markings?

After reassembling the valve train, is it necessary to rotate the engine a few times back to the check position then re-measure the clearance. Or can the measurement be taken once upon reassembly?

Jay

Moe says he removes the plugs and raises the rear wheel off the ground. He then puts the bike in gear and rotates the engine via the rear wheel. At least I think that's what I read. The service manual tells you to remove the right engine side cover and turn the engine using the bolt on the end of the crankshaft. That requires removing the foot peg bar and draining the crankcase.. a new side cover gasket will also be required. Me? I bump the thing over using the starter... this isn't exactly the prescribed method but it's the simplist for me. I just barely tickle the starter switch untill the cams rotate to the desired position, take my measurement, write it down and move along to the next one.

Once your measurements are made and you make the necessary changes, reinstall the camshafts assuring all your marks line up and the manual says to rotate the engine 360 degrees and recheck the timing marks. At that point recheck your clearances.

I've done mine a couple of times now and that's what works for me.

After re-reading the service manual, I see where I was mistaken about one thing. To check the clearance, you rotate the crank until a pair of lobes are pointed away from the bucket. I thought the marks on the cam & cam drive gear were brought into line and all the clearances could be checked, I guess that's not the case. You repeat moving the crank until all pairs are measured. You only need to have the marks lined up if removing any cam for shim replacement. So bumping the crank with the starter would work just fine.

It would be nice to have the parts list ahead of time for:

Cam cover bolt seals:
cam cover gasket:
oil pipe o ring:
banjo bolt sealing washers:
banjo bolt (just in case):

Thanks
Jay

Good idea! Sucks getting 75% done with a job and without a part!! What should we get/order ahead of time?

Here's some part numbers for top end parts (need to verify).
Based on a 2003 America, however no parts were vin specific that I'm aware of, so these should be the same for all Americas.

Cam cover bolt seals: (was told not available separately??)
cam cover gasket: (was told not available separately??)
oil pipe O-ring: T3600077 ($5.00 EA, 1 RQD)
banjo bolt sealing washer: T3550042 ($1.00 EA, 2 RQD)
banjo bolt: T1211456 ($8.00 EA, 2 RQD)
cam cap bolts: T3350073 ($8.00 EA, 8 RQD)
Alternator cover gasket: T1260968 ($6.00 EA, 1 RQD)

KIT GASKET, CYL FULL: T3990051 ($255)
KIT GASKET, CYL TOP END: T3990061 ($205)
(was told the cam cover gasket and bolt seals were part of the above kits)

If anyone has a parts breakdown, please verify the above part numbers. I would think the cam cover gasket and bolt seals would be available separately.

What is the metric size and grade of the cam cap bolts?
I don't like torx type bolts. Would a cap bolt or hex head bolt be better?

jay

So you're sayin just to check my valves I gotta drop 2 bills for the gaskets? Yikes...

From what I remember from other posts, the cam cover gasket can be re-used. The cam cover bolt seals can be re-used two or three times. I find it hard to believe the gasket and cam cover bolt seals cannot be purchased separately.

Some of the parts listed aren't needed unless they are damaged (banjo bolts, cam cap bolts). But it's nice to have the part numbers on hand.

I plan on buying some decent metric measuring tools; Starrett feeler gage 173MA & micrometer V230MXRL or V230MXFL. They are kind of expensive, but I remember the better machinist tools in our shop were Starrett.

j

Starrett is definitely a good name. I doubt I'll be popping for that anytime soon, found a nice dial caliper/micrometer set in a wooden box at Costco (I know I know...) but I think they'll serve my purposes nicely. That and a feeler gauge. Already have the HD torx bit.

Starrett make excelent measuring tools. For the more expensive stuff, always check their web page as the first step in shopping. they have a list of items that have been superceeded and they want to clear out for cheap. I got a really good digital 5 inch micrometer for under half price last year that way.

<<COVER YOUR CYLINDER HEAD WITH THE CAM COVER AND A TOWEL. PLACE ALL YOUR NUMBERS INTO MOE'S FORMULA SHEET. CALL BIG 4 CYCLE IN THE MORNING AND ORDER YOUR SHIMS.
>>

I got this from the other thread. Where is your formula sheet for the shims?

For sanity checking, I used Pat's shim calculator, available here:
http://members.bluefrog.com/~pwhitbec/Triumph/BigBore/PatsShimCalculator.exe

and Moe's spreadsheet.

Email Moe and I am sure he'd be happy to send it to you

I contacted Palm Beach Triumph today to verify the following part numbers and approximate prices.

Cam cover bolt seals: T1260209 ($4.00 EA, 4 RQD)
cam cover gasket: T1260900 ($21.00, 1 RQD)
oil pipe O-ring: T3600077 ($4.00 EA, 1 RQD)
banjo bolt sealing washer: T3550042 ($0.82 EA, 2 RQD)
banjo bolt: T1211456 ($7.00 EA, 2 RQD)
cam cap bolts: T3330127 ($1.50 EA, 8 RQD)
Alternator cover gasket: T1260968 ($5.00 EA, 1 RQD)

Camshaft backlash gear locking pins and wrench: T3880330 ($44.00)

Palm Beach Triumph (Bob Keenan)

12550 South Military Trail #8
Boynton Beach, FL. 33436-5843


Tel : 561-638-8411
Tle : 800-992-1511
Fax : 561-638-4234

Palm Beach Triumph

Jay

Just wondering. For the more learned of us. Do our valves tend to tighten up with time or loosen.

You might want to add the cost of a really good digital torque wrench. I stripped out 2 of the cam bolt fittings on the cam caps. One I had to use a helicoil. All because I was too cheap to buy a digital torque wrench.

The torque wrenches I own are:
Sears Craftsman 'Microtork'

10-75 ft/lb or 16.90-105.10 n.m Craftsman 944594 (3/8" drive)
20-150 ft/lb or 33.90-210.10 n.m Craftsman 944595 (1/2" drive)
25-250 inch/lb or 3.61-29.03 n.m Craftsman 944593 (3/8" drive)

ACCURACY: +/- 4% on clockwise or right-hand readings greater or equal to 20% of capacity.


The torque spec for the cam cap bolts are 10nm, which is half of what the spark plug torque should be. It seems very 'light' to me.

I've yet to do my lash check, I'm at 11,100 miles and rapidly closing in on 12k. SO, I'm gathering the tools (and mustering the courage) to do the check my self.

A reliable mechanic from a Triumph only shop says he uses the rear wheel to rotate the cams for the check. If any are out of spec, then off comes the alternator cover so the crank can be rotated more accurately. He also stated they don't have too much trouble with the top end bolts etc. But, I guess if you do it fairly frequently and have the correct tools, plus all the nuances experience teaches you, that would make sense.
Jay

talked to my mechanic about doing mine next year, i am going to pay him to do it but he is letting me watch. so i pay once and that will be the last. good enough for me

Frank