 HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 529
Adjunct
|
OP
Adjunct
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 529 |
(Reuters) CHICAGO--Harley-Davidson Inc reported a sharp drop in fourth-quarter earnings on Friday as a pullback in consumer spending began to spread from the United States into overseas markets where the motorcycle maker had been enjoying sales growth.
The company said it was taking several actions to cut costs, including plant closures that would result in 1,100 workers losing their jobs.
Harley said its net income fell 58% to $77.8 million, or 34 cents a share, from $186.1 million, or 78 cents a share, a year earlier.
Sales fell 6.8 percent to $1.29 billion.
2005 America, green/gray, gutted stock pipes, tall sissy bar w/ luggage rack, Saddleman's dual touring seat and Tourmaster saddlebags (and sissybar bag).
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,463
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,463 |
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7847430.stm that says.... Quote:
Harley-Davidson is to close plants and cut 1,100 jobs after reporting worse-than-expected results.
Three month net income came in at $77.8m (£57.1m), which was down 58% from the same quarter of 2007.
Harley plans to cut production by up to 13% in 2009 from already reduced 2008 levels. The job cuts represent about 12% of its total workforce.
It also reported losses at its in-house financing unit due to bad debts and continuing credit market problems.
Sales of Harley-Davidson motorcycles fell 13.1% in the quarter, led by a 19.6% fall in sales in the US, which is its most important market.
There was a 28% fall in sales in Latin America.
The company is to combine its two engine and transmission plants, consolidate its paint frame operations into a single plant and close its parts and accessories distribution centre.
In future, the company said it planned to use other companies to distribute parts and accessories.
perhaps if they didn't charge so much...
Gina
03 America - Pretty stock - except the TBS wheel... 
06 America - missing, presumed in bits. With it's TBS wheel... 
09 America - It's very blue....
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 605
Adjunct
|
|
Adjunct
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 605 |
I like their newest sales pitch here in KC. Bring in your 07 - 09 harley sportster used but never dropped, and they'll give you MSRP on it to trade in for a big twin or other $30k bike.
Almost a non-profit organization.
Aaron
04 "Green Bean" Freaked, AI removal, Bafflectomy, 6" Risers, and 30" Drag Bars.
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,440
Learned Hand
|
|
Learned Hand
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,440 |
Everyone is in trouble. At least HD isn't stealin' public funds.
'08 America Blue/White; Custom Headlamps, Custom Lowers, Clearview 20", Bafflectomy
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,736 Likes: 7
Should be Riding
|
|
Should be Riding
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,736 Likes: 7 |
Quote:
I like their newest sales pitch here in KC. Bring in your 07 - 09 harley sportster used but never dropped, and they'll give you MSRP on it to trade in for a big twin or other $30k bike.
Almost a non-profit organization.
I think they are doing that everywhere, and it's a pretty smart move. They know the economy will come back eventually, and people who buy Sportsters trade up eventually, so unless someone keeps the bike for 5 years and 50,000 miles, they will still come out ahead. Makes for sales now and later.
Always remember to be yourself. Unless you suck. Then pretend to be someone else.
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 8,639 Likes: 3
Old Hand
|
|
Old Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 8,639 Likes: 3 |
Quote:
I like their newest sales pitch here in KC. Bring in your 07 - 09 harley sportster used but never dropped, and they'll give you MSRP on it to trade in for a big twin or other $30k bike.
Almost a non-profit organization.
They've been doing that off and on for years. By the time you add in $2K in accessories and such for the Sportster, the difference between MSRP and used price is made up, then there is the net from the big twin and even more accessories. It's all cash in the bank for somewhere between $500 - $1000 loss on the used bike. In the long term, it's very sound marketing and explains why the 883 doesn't perform near as well as it could.
Let's hope there's intelligent life somewhere in space 'cause it's buggar all down here. -- Monte Python
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,284
Learned Hand
|
|
Learned Hand
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,284 |
Quote:
Everyone is in trouble. At least HD isn't stealin' public funds.
+1
Strangler
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,068 Likes: 1
Saddle Sore
|
|
Saddle Sore
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,068 Likes: 1 |
I hope no one is gloating over this - what if it were Triumph facing the same issues ? I hate to hear of ANYONE losing business or being laid off .
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 529
Adjunct
|
|
OP
Adjunct
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 529 |
That certainly wasn't the point I was trying to make when I posted this Wade. I simply wanted to bring it to everyone's attention. It does raise an eyebrow, or a smerk by some, that the seemingly invincible HD is, in fact, mortal and getting slapped with a bit of reality.
2005 America, green/gray, gutted stock pipes, tall sissy bar w/ luggage rack, Saddleman's dual touring seat and Tourmaster saddlebags (and sissybar bag).
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 18,825
"Lighten up, Francis."
|
|
"Lighten up, Francis."
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 18,825 |
Quote:
Quote:
Everyone is in trouble. At least HD isn't stealin' public funds.
+1
Wait for it...
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,248 Likes: 64
Fe Butt
|
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,248 Likes: 64 |
I don't think anyone is gloating over an American business in trouble or the loss of so many jobs. It is bad when any large employer has to cut back. It doesn't help anyone, I do agree they are not sucking up tax payer cash but I doubt our gov't would bail them out as they have with the big 3 or the banks. I don't think HD would be considered a needed manufacturer but looked at as more of a little guy. My towing business at this point is all but dead after 11 years of doing fairly well, I doubt the gov't would bail me out.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,152
Oil Expert
|
|
Oil Expert
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,152 |
Quote:
My towing business at this point is all but dead after 11 years of doing fairly well, I doubt the gov't would bail me out.
sorry to hear that (Ian?). Do you put it down to people driving less or what?
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,248 Likes: 64
Fe Butt
|
|
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,248 Likes: 64 |
It is a combination of things. There are way too many people doing the same thing here now so not enough work to go around,that's the main one. The other is idiots that don't want to pay for a tow. I see them all the time pushing 1 plastic car with another and you hear the crunching all the way up the road. They spend thousands in damage to save a $50 to $70 tow.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,272 Likes: 17
Saddle Sore
|
|
Saddle Sore
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,272 Likes: 17 |
Quote
I do agree they are not sucking up tax payer cash but I doubt our gov't would bail them out as they have with the big 3 or the banks. I don't think HD would be considered a needed manufacturer but looked at as more of a little guy.
How soon we forget. The government bailed out HD years ago or they would have suffered the same fate as Indian and many other American MC companies.
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
|
|
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Mike, are you sure the government bailed H-D out with cash, or might you be referring to the 750cc and larger motorcycle protectionist trade policy which H-D received during their dark days of the late 1970s and just around the time of Willie G. and some investors purchasing the company back from A.M.F., which many people believe helped save the company from bankruptcy at the time.
I ask this because I don't recall H-D ever receiving taxpayer funds, but I could be mistaken here.
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,537
Check Pants
|
|
Check Pants
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,537 |
My neighbor was the floor sales manager for a small satellite store in MD. She lost her job a week before Christmas.
Al
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,643
Monkey Butt
|
|
Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,643 |
What the tall and the short of this news is, if HD are having a hard time Triumph themselves will be. The recession will hit every business eventually as punters hold on to their cash. You walk down the high streets in the UK to "Up to 70% Sales" and people are still not spending.
Where will it all end, I feel for those people who will loose their jobs, houses etc.
Ray(UK)
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,248 Likes: 64
Fe Butt
|
|
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,248 Likes: 64 |
I don't remember HD getting any tax payer money. I do remember HD being in trouble before. That's why I wondered about the title of this thread being "finally" Been there before.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,705 Likes: 23
Monkey Butt
|
|
Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,705 Likes: 23 |
The numbers are not out yet by the private company called Triumph. They are horrible for the 4th quarter per two dealers I know. Almost no sales this month either.
In a tight economy with tight lending practices, motorcycles and boats are the first to go.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 325
Adjunct
|
|
Adjunct
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 325 |
They have to have some cash my god they sold a billon harlyes every one i know and every were you look theres one.I personaly like them my brother has one we swap bikes all the time. They have an awsome sound.
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,518 Likes: 32
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,518 Likes: 32 |
Quote:
What the tall and the short of this news is, if HD are having a hard time Triumph themselves will be.
Not necessarily so or at least not to the same extent. Triumph is privately held and is not forced to sustain bloated levels of production and the associated pressure to produce a set level of profits.
The Triumph product range is both attractive and affordable unlike HD's whose price levels sort of make it a niche product.
I would therefore think Triumph is more manageable, given it's size and lack of outside pressures (stockholders).
Bedouin.
Blessed are those eyes that have seen more roads than any man! (Homer).
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,643
Monkey Butt
|
|
Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,643 |
Never thought about that Beouin, but I wonder if they are still feeling the pinch, with the £ being the way it is also..
Ray(UK)
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,518 Likes: 32
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,518 Likes: 32 |
Quote:
... with the £ being the way it is also..
That should help exports, not hinder them.
The £ has dropped from 1.40 to 1.06 against the Euro in the past 12 months (and to a lesser degree against the Dollar).
Bedouin.
Blessed are those eyes that have seen more roads than any man! (Homer).
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,272 Likes: 17
Saddle Sore
|
|
Saddle Sore
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,272 Likes: 17 |
Quote:
Mike, are you sure the government bailed H-D out with cash, or might you be referring to the 750cc and larger motorcycle protectionist trade policy which H-D received during their dark days of the late 1970s and just around the time of Willie G. and some investors purchasing the company back from A.M.F., which many people believe helped save the company from bankruptcy at the time.
I ask this because I don't recall H-D ever receiving taxpayer funds, but I could be mistaken here.
I suppose my memory of this over the years has faded. I thought there was some financial aid. Guaranteed loans etc, but I could be wrong.
Let's just say the deck got stacked in their favor!
I pulled this from Wikipedia, which might be fact.
In 1981, AMF sold the company to a group of thirteen investors led by Vaughn Beals and Willie G. Davidson for $80 million.[33] Inventory was strictly controlled using the Just In Time system.
In the early eighties, Harley-Davidson claimed the Japanese manufacturers were dumping motorcycles on the US market. After Harley-Davidson rejected aid from Japanese manufacturers, the US International Trade Commission imposed in 1983 a 45% tariff on imported bikes and bikes over 700 cc engine capacities specifically to protect Harley-Davidson.[34][35]
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,440
Learned Hand
|
|
Learned Hand
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,440 |
Quote:
The Triumph product range is both attractive and affordable unlike HD's whose price levels sort of make it a niche product.
Yeah, that's why ya hardly see any HDs on the road these days. 
'08 America Blue/White; Custom Headlamps, Custom Lowers, Clearview 20", Bafflectomy
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 738
Adjunct
|
|
Adjunct
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 738 |
Quote:
Quote:
... with the £ being the way it is also..
That should help exports, not hinder them.
The £ has dropped from 1.40 to 1.06 against the Euro in the past 12 months (and to a lesser degree against the Dollar).
Exchange rate generally favours Triumph uk built bikes for the euro market but bikes and componets made in the far east are traded in dollars. So there is advatages of a weak sterling but not as much as it appears.
Totally agree with the range - Triumph have a broader appeal with great quality products and a loyal customer base. Downturn will be less severe than the outlook for HD.
Scary times for all - only the strong and brave will survive!
One day as a tiger is worth a thousand as a sheep
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,518 Likes: 32
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,518 Likes: 32 |
Quote:
Quote:
The Triumph product range is both attractive and affordable unlike HD's whose price levels sort of make it a niche product.
Yeah, that's why ya hardly see any HDs on the road these days.
Clever?
15-30.000 Dollars is expensive in anyone's book and it was the price levels I was referring to.
How many other brands do you see with similar prices?
Now, if we really want to be thorough, here's an equation for you to chew on:
HD has been around for 106 years and produces less than 1 (one) percent of the 44 million motorized 2-wheeler unit production.
Given the above and the asking prices for their product, I think we can safely say it's a boutique/niche product.
Oh yeah, that's worldwide I am referring to ... not downtown Austin, Texas.
Bedouin.
Blessed are those eyes that have seen more roads than any man! (Homer).
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,816
Freelance Jedi Knight
|
|
Freelance Jedi Knight
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,816 |
Quote:
Quote:
The Triumph product range is both attractive and affordable unlike HD's whose price levels sort of make it a niche product.
Yeah, that's why ya hardly see any HDs on the road these days.
still see more triumphs than harleys on roads here and much more european cars than made in america.....
probably your sight is different but who the HEL cares about your opinion
BTW my local dealer sold 10 Triumphs this month I think thats not bad
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,705 Likes: 23
Monkey Butt
|
|
Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,705 Likes: 23 |
On my! 1%! Lets take out the kymco type, sport bikes, mopeds and go to cruisers and heavyweight cruisers. cough, cough 26% cough. Grzegorz, 10 units a month in a country where they are built? Actually I thought it would be much higher there. I wonder if Warrs in England or others sell less than 10 units a month of the Harley line. 
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 8,639 Likes: 3
Old Hand
|
|
Old Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 8,639 Likes: 3 |
If you look at history, motorcycles were largely a toy for rich people early on. Then, as global economics moved from largely agrarian to manufacturing, motorized transportation became a necessity. Cars were still for rich people, so motorcycles moved from toy to tool status. As people became more prosperous and Ford advanced the art of cost cutting, motorcycles went back to toy status. After the market crash in 1929 and the following depression, motorcycles went back to tool status because people couldn't afford to drive a car even if they had one. Fuel and tire rationing during WWII forced everyone who could ride a bike to do so. The scarcity of new cars the first couple of years after the war drove even many rich people to buy motorcycles, then the post war boom years moved bikes solidly back to toy status.
With the present economic situation, people are cutting back on their spending for expensive toys and the motorcycle industry in our part of the world is suffering for it. But, if things continue to spiral downward, I expect to see motorcycles to start replacing econobox cars as basic transportation. Triumph is already well placed for this with their reasonably priced high quality twins and it would involve little expense to cobble up a stripped down economy version. HD, on the other hand might have some surprises in store. Seems they have rather quietly acquired all or part of a few makers of small economy bikes and that could keep them going untill 2 wheeled toys are popular again.
Let's hope there's intelligent life somewhere in space 'cause it's buggar all down here. -- Monte Python
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,816
Freelance Jedi Knight
|
|
Freelance Jedi Knight
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,816 |
10 units one local dealer in less than month and weather is not good for riding for most people
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
|
|
New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
As posted on the New Bonneville forum. A comparison of 2008 to 2007 calender year sale in the USA.
BMW -6.12% / -740 units
BUELL +5.20% / +250 units
HD -14.09% / -37000 units
HON -6.96% / -13000 units
KAW +.86% / +1000 units
SUK -13.36% / -16000 units
TRI -1.80% / -200 units
VIC -65% / -4500 units
YAM -4.45% / -6000 units
US motorcycle sales are down -7.57% from 2007 to 2008. To put it in prospective HD sold 226000, Triumph sold 10500 in 2008.
Last edited by MACMC; 01/24/2009 11:12 AM.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,816
Freelance Jedi Knight
|
|
Freelance Jedi Knight
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,816 |
but have to remember that 2008 was record for triumph ...almost 50000 units made
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,726
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,726 |
Wow, it looks like Victory had a major drop in sales in '08 from '07. That's gotta hurt.
Bob
2005 America, 904cc - sold. 2014 Trophy SE.
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
|
|
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Yep Bob. And I'm guessin' that that percentage drop in Victory sales, which is WAY more than any other manufacturer listed here, is because unlike every other motorcycle manufacturer listed above, Victory does not have an entry-level model priced under $10K to sell to a public who's discretionary income is fast disappearing in this lousy economy.
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,705 Likes: 23
Monkey Butt
|
|
Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,705 Likes: 23 |
So Harley sells 50,000 more bikes in America than Honda.
I must be doing the math wrong.
100/6.96 is 14.37x13,000= 186,810.
Harley sold 226,000 with no small bike.
That is impressive production. I had no idea. I thought Honda was the big dog in sales.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,440
Learned Hand
|
|
Learned Hand
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,440 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The Triumph product range is both attractive and affordable unlike HD's whose price levels sort of make it a niche product.
Yeah, that's why ya hardly see any HDs on the road these days.
it was the price levels I was referring to.
Really? And have ya looked at Sportsters? In HD's home market, a 900CC Sportster is considerably cheaper than a BA. Hey, I've got an idea. Let's talk about the $16k motorcycle Triumph is/was/might be planning to produce.
'08 America Blue/White; Custom Headlamps, Custom Lowers, Clearview 20", Bafflectomy
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,248 Likes: 64
Fe Butt
|
|
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,248 Likes: 64 |
Where are you finding a Snortster considerably cheaper than a BA? Not anywhere near me that's for sure. They are about the same price for the base model, the Sportster being slightly more. This is not taking into acct. the recent or impending price hike from Triumph I have heard of.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,440
Learned Hand
|
|
Learned Hand
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,440 |
Quote:
probably your sight is different but who the HEL cares about your opinion
Apparently you do, or you wouldn't be responding to it. Say, how are the open sewers comin' along up your way? Any progress to report Grzegorz?
'08 America Blue/White; Custom Headlamps, Custom Lowers, Clearview 20", Bafflectomy
|
|
|
Re: HD finally facing trouble
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,518 Likes: 32
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,518 Likes: 32 |
Quote:
On my! 1%!
Lets take out the kymco type, sport bikes, mopeds and go to cruisers and heavyweight cruisers.
cough, cough 26% cough.
While you are about it, why don't you take out the bikes that don't have belt drives.
That will elevate your percentage to 97% and assist a bit with that cough.
It will still have nothing to do with manufacturers' overall production and the "equation" I mentioned above.
Bedouin.
Blessed are those eyes that have seen more roads than any man! (Homer).
|
|
|
|
|
