 jet talk
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 25
Greenhorn
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OP
Greenhorn
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 25 |
Hi all had the bike on the dyno been told running lean. After the power run getting 51.86 hp but running lean some ideas would be much help. bike is 08 TSM ai removed :mad-****** pipes:air box drilled . I have orded 120 mains and thinking of putting TBS needles plus Tbs springs am I going the right way any help is more than welcome thanks all 
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Re: jet talk
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,459 Likes: 1
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,459 Likes: 1 |
Hi, You will get a good few pointers from here. Pats jet calculator I am quite sure our bikes come with 120 mains standard. and also your 08 may be injection, depends where you are. I have the TOR short pipes, standard filter and airbox, 125 main jets, AI removed. runs better than it did with the 120 jets I replaced.
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Re: jet talk
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,440
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,440 |
Quote:
I have the TOR short pipes, standard filter and airbox, 125 main jets, AI removed. runs better than it did with the 120 jets I replaced.
Same here, except for long TORS. Beautiful tone and runs perfectly with 125 jets. Didn't even bother to adjust mixture. 
'08 America Blue/White; Custom Headlamps, Custom Lowers, Clearview 20", Bafflectomy
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Re: jet talk
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,243 Likes: 64
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,243 Likes: 64 |
If you have a carbed bike you should always adjust your mixture for best performance after any exhaust or intake change.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: jet talk
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,726
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,726 |
+1. Adjusting the carbs is way easier than you think. You do have to have a "D" tool or change them for thumbscrews (I did). You can easily tell if you're getting better or worse. You can bet they will end up somewhere between 1.5 and 3 turns out. If it needs to be near 3, you probably should up the pilots one size and start over at 1.5-2. The worst you can do is end up running too rich or too lean.
Since putting on the thumbscrews and running some SeaFoam through the tank, I've been tweaking mine. I can tell by the decel popping on my setup if I'm too lean or too rich, but I pull the plugs every 500 miles to see if they are ok. If one cylinder's plug appears a little rich, I tweak that screw in a hair.
Bob
2005 America, 904cc - sold. 2014 Trophy SE.
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Re: jet talk
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,440
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,440 |
Why should I adjust the idle? TORS have practically no effect on flow at the throttle positions over which the pilots contribute substantially to the mixture. The bike starts instantly, doesn't pop on decel and runs beautifully. I do have a "D" tool BTW, but it's a waste of time to bother with this just because I changed to TORS. I couldn't possibly make anything better without a manometer, and given the current state of tune, even that would be only for my own satisfaction.
'08 America Blue/White; Custom Headlamps, Custom Lowers, Clearview 20", Bafflectomy
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Re: jet talk
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,440
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,440 |
Quote:
I can tell by the decel popping on my setup if I'm too lean or too rich, but I pull the plugs every 500 miles to see if they are ok.
Neither of these techniques will tell you if the idle mixture is correct. At the very least, a ratio meter and manometer are required.
'08 America Blue/White; Custom Headlamps, Custom Lowers, Clearview 20", Bafflectomy
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Re: jet talk
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,243 Likes: 64
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,243 Likes: 64 |
Quote:
Quote:
I can tell by the decel popping on my setup if I'm too lean or too rich, but I pull the plugs every 500 miles to see if they are ok.
Neither of these techniques will tell you if the idle mixture is correct. At the very least, a ratio meter and manometer are required.
Neither one is required to set you idle mixture unless you want to split hairs. It is easy to adjust the mixture with nothing more than an ear for how the engine is idling during adjustment. This may not be as good as an A/F meter but works very well and will get you into an acceptable range. I'm not getting into a big debate over this again, there it is take it for what it is.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: jet talk
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,726
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,726 |
They may not tell you, but they do tell me. I know exactly where the carbs screws produce the optimum fuel/air mixture on the sniffer and dyno. I found my bike performs better a hair richer on the fuel/air than my service dealer wants it. I've spent a fair amount of time adjusting my own bike and can tell by the way it sounds (and performs) if it's better or worse. When I have it too rich, the decel popping almost goes away but the performance suffers.
Everything has been set up with numerous dyno and manometer checks. So, fouled plugs do show I've richened the mixture too much. Adjust the screws in, plugs get happy, bike runs great, and I recognize the optimum decel popping for my setup. Maybe that calarifies my statement.
BTW, I recently noticed I was having to richen the screws over my "normal" setting to run the best. After running through some SeaFoam and a couple of tanks, I ended up with the screws back to where I started for best performance. I assume the SeaFoam cleaned out some build up in the fuel system which was constricting flow after almost 14000 miles. I won't change where it is set now without running some SeaFoam through. At least, I'll run it through once a year.
Bob
2005 America, 904cc - sold. 2014 Trophy SE.
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Re: jet talk
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,440
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,440 |
I think it's pretty funny how folks often say one thing, then pretend they said something else when they're questioned about it. Human nature, I guess. 
'08 America Blue/White; Custom Headlamps, Custom Lowers, Clearview 20", Bafflectomy
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Re: jet talk
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,172
Saddle Sore
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Saddle Sore
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,172 |
I'll get corrected if I'm wrong, but I thought the 08's already had different needles. Maybe even the same as TBS needles?
Actually, what I meant to say was I think the 08's may already have TBS needles.....
More flags
More fun!
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Re: jet talk
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,726
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,726 |
Jack, are you saying I contridicted myself or someone else? 
Bob
2005 America, 904cc - sold. 2014 Trophy SE.
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Re: jet talk
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,671 Likes: 15
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,671 Likes: 15 |
Quote:
...After running through some SeaFoam and a couple of tanks, I ended up with the screws back to where I started for best performance...
A good rule of thumb is to run some Techron or Seafoam through the tank with every oil change.
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Re: jet talk
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,440
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,440 |
Quote:
Jack, are you saying I contridicted myself
No, I wasn't referring to you. You are misadjusting your carbs, though. Decel popping and plug fouling are not appropriate indicators of a correct idle mixture. 
'08 America Blue/White; Custom Headlamps, Custom Lowers, Clearview 20", Bafflectomy
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Re: jet talk
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,726
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,726 |
Jack, apparently you don't read any better than I do.
Bob
2005 America, 904cc - sold. 2014 Trophy SE.
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Re: jet talk
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 25
Greenhorn
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OP
Greenhorn
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 25 |
Ok got my jets in on sunday bike seems ok didn~t change the needles or drilled out the slide going to ring 2moro to get it on the dyno .Has anyone drilled there slides snd does it make a difference?Ended putting 135 jets I hope to see some diffrence Oh yeah mixtures are out 2.3/4
ps: not so hot on the Pc:heheheh!
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Re: jet talk
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 286
Adjunct
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Adjunct
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 286 |
I drilled the slide on my 2007 America. Didn't notice any difference. Apparently on the earlier bikes this mod helped to improve throttle response, but the hole on the newer bikes is already bigger from the factory.
As for jetting, you could probably argue enlessly about the "corect" way to go about things. However, at the end of the day, trial and error will get you pretty close to a good set up. Make a change and then determine whether the bike runs better or worse than before. repeat.
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Re: jet talk
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,243 Likes: 64
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,243 Likes: 64 |
Drilling the slide is only for earlier models, later models already have a larger passage.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: jet talk
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821 |
Quote:
A good rule of thumb is to run some Techron or Seafoam through the tank with every oil change.
Or just give ten bucks to the homeless dude at the intersection.
It'll do your bike as much good.
And the psychological benefits may be greater.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: jet talk
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,671 Likes: 15
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,671 Likes: 15 |
No thanks, I prefer the Techron. But thanks for sharing.
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Re: jet talk
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821 |
Oh. Techron's good alright. Mine comes in the gas though. No need to spend extra. Top Tier Gasoline.
Last edited by bigbill; 10/26/2008 10:29 PM.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: jet talk
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,671 Likes: 15
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,671 Likes: 15 |
One might (& probably should) choose to evaluate things differently in places with different weather patterns than yours (higher humidity, seasonal ice/snow, & some degree of periodic storage, even if temporary). Whether you buy the best gas available or not is up to you, regardless of location.
I know from personal experience that the stuff works. FWIW Dale Walker (engine builder & tuner in CA) also recommends a periodic application of Techron to keep the carb circuits clean.
To make an unsupported statement that the use of Techron is a waste (however clever the analogy) without defining why or what assumptions you base that opinion on, or your specific experience with it, isn't all that helpful, IMO (but hey, that's just me).
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Re: jet talk
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821 |
Fair enough Ken. I've been a mechanic for roughly 35 years. I've worked on gasoline and diesel engines. Piston, turbine, and rotary. Motorcycles, autos, trucks, heavy construction equipment and small engines. I've built and raced hot rods and desert racers. There's more but you get the picture. I've rebuilt uncounted carburetors, and yes, some get very funky; from use of really cheap gas, from sitting for long periods or from malfunctions. Every carburetor that I have taken apart that was on a vehicle that ran quality gasoline and was well maintained has been as free from deposits as it could be, including some with over 200,000 miles. Same for the top ends of the engines. My main beef with additives is that too many people substitute them for proper maintenance and/or quality fuel. Or they think it's Liquid Schwartz and adds mega horsepower. I just like to keep the record straight. Now if you park your bike for six months without preparing it or protecting it, it may be a good idea to run some Techron through it. But hey, it's your dough. At least it won't do any harm. 
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: jet talk
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,671 Likes: 15
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,671 Likes: 15 |
Quote:
...
My main beef with additives is that too many people substitute them for proper maintenance and/or quality fuel.
Or they think it's Liquid Schwartz and adds mega horsepower...
Agreed & no argument with that from me.
Given that a 20 oz. bottle costs about 10 bucks retail & will treat over 4 full tanks, a $2.50 or so shot of Techron every 6 mo to a year ain't a bad preventative measure.
I have seen gunked carbs, & it ain't a pretty sight. Ususally that's a storage-related issue, but not always. I personally don't trust anybody's gas quality anymore, especially in PA where 10% ethanol is common & who knows who made the last delivery.
I look at this issue the same way I do as vitamins & flouride toothpaste.
I occasionally roll the dice on inexpensive gas, so for me an occasional Techron shot is a necessity (boat, snow, bikes, trucks).
It's all good, so long as an informed choice is made. 
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Re: jet talk
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,440
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,440 |
Quote:
I look at this issue the same way I do as vitamins & flouride toothpaste.
Which vitamins are best for the carbs?
'08 America Blue/White; Custom Headlamps, Custom Lowers, Clearview 20", Bafflectomy
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Re: jet talk
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,172
Saddle Sore
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Saddle Sore
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,172 |
OneADay multi-vitamins is overkill, in my opinion.
If it's an older bike you may want to use Centrum Silver, but I'd stay away from Flintstones....
Riding in PA you often find yourself needing gas when you are far from any modern metropolis. In some of the small towns you have no idea what the age or quality of the gas might be, but you have no choice. A dose of Seafoam or Techron from time to time is a good thing.....
More flags
More fun!
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Re: jet talk
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,440
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,440 |
Quote:
In some of the small towns you have no idea what the age or quality of the gas might be, but you have no choice. A dose of Seafoam or Techron from time to time is a good thing.....
There was a sting in Houston some years ago where they analyzed gas from various stations around the city. They discovered that some of the owners were adding all types of junk to the tanks, including used motor oil, to boost profits. The bottom line is that the stuff you really have to worry about won't be remedied by simple additives. They're all a waste of money for any purpose other than storage.
'08 America Blue/White; Custom Headlamps, Custom Lowers, Clearview 20", Bafflectomy
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Re: jet talk
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,382
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,382 |
Quote:
Which vitamins are best for the carbs?
Flintstone Chewables 
Tony G
'03 America
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Re: jet talk
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 25
Greenhorn
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OP
Greenhorn
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 25 |
Ok guys got it on the dyno as said put 135 mains ran the beast and power and talk curve much better no hp increase!Stuck in the tbs needles and kept same clean curve thru the rev range,this time a increase to 53.20 hp from as said 51.48 still long way to 60plus plp ar saying there getting?
Running around 13.6 to 14 a/f mix so that seems ok.Am i missing somthing here? On road very happy can I get 60+ without going overboard?
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Re: jet talk
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 25
Greenhorn
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OP
Greenhorn
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 25 |
Yeah torque is up at51.87 will try to put graphs on line
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Re: jet talk
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,671 Likes: 15
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,671 Likes: 15 |
The A/F is still too lean for max power, lets see the charts.
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Re: jet talk
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 25
Greenhorn
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OP
Greenhorn
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 25 |
ok here goes no pc guru... Sh....t how can i add pics not getting any on 
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