 Article I Read In Businessweek
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ahah....yeah im reading businessweek, someone left it in the bathroom.
Anyway, the article was talking about european car makers not making as much profits from the US due to the cost of gas and whatnot. So theyre on the verge of setting up plants in the US to save money, following the asian companies.
So theres a bit of good news for the American worker. Now if only American owned automakers could find a way to build cheaper in the US...haha
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Re: Article I Read In Businessweek
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The answer is easy, pass the fairtax! getting congress to pass it however is the tricky question.
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Re: Article I Read In Businessweek
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Re: Article I Read In Businessweek
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Re: Article I Read In Businessweek
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yeah no use in talking about it then i guess...thanks alot...haha
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Re: Article I Read In Businessweek
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The European auto makers are doing it for several business reasons, and they've been doing it for years (BMW has a plant in South Carolina which was dedicated to building the Z series until this month). 1. The dollar is weak and projected to stay weak against the Euro. 2. European companies are heavily unionized - even more so than here in the U.S. 3. European workers are hired with 4 - 5 weeks of vacation in the bank at hire date AND they have holidays up the kazoo. Therefore, there are more hours worked in the USA than in a European plant. 4. Industrial land (zoned for manufacturing) is cheaper here than in Europe, and many states (especially in the South) throw incentives at anyone for anything as long as the business ends up in their neighborhood. 5. Transportation costs for the end product and support (parts) is less in the US, since the cars don't have to be shipped over to us. 6. There are no import taxes on cars built in the USA. I hope you washed your hands after you read that mag you found in the bathroom!!! 
JB
"Long live the Duck Force!"
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Re: Article I Read In Businessweek
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3/4 Throttle
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The US is one of the few, if not the only country, to really have "free trade". Our goods manufactured in this country almost always have some type of tax added to them if they are sent to another country by that country.
The labor cost advantage China and India have over the US won't last long-look at Japan and Taiwan. Their cost of labor, like the European countries, is equal to or higher than the US.
The issue is the import and export of goods on a fair basis. I don't claim to be an economist but I worked for a large company for enough years to understand the politics and Things That Aren't Discussed when you talk about importing and exporting goods.
Redbike7
2006 America
No amount of skill can overcome gross stupidity. Ask me how I know...never mind, I forgot...
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Re: Article I Read In Businessweek
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american goods, unfortunately, cost a lot of money to make, because (at the risk of offending a LOT of people here), american workers want money, insurance, 40 hour work weeks, paid vacations, and more. don't get me wrong. i grew up in a labor movement positive household. my father is a teamster. i respect that everybody should have a working wage.... but, part of the problem is that everybody wants toys (us for example...motorcycles are considered 'luxuries'), including the working class. and, not only do they want them, but the people that are running the corporations get ridiculously overpaid. there are people whose retirement compensation is more than 20 years worth of salary of those people that are doing the legwork. stuff costs too much because everybody wants too much money for everything they do. myself included 
there are 10 kinds of people in the world. those that understand binary, and those that don't.
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Re: Article I Read In Businessweek
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Fe Butt
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Quote:
The European auto makers are doing it for several business reasons, and they've been doing it for years (BMW has a plant in South Carolina which was dedicated to building the Z series until this month).
1. The dollar is weak and projected to stay weak against the Euro.
2. European companies are heavily unionized - even more so than here in the U.S.
3. European workers are hired with 4 - 5 weeks of vacation in the bank at hire date AND they have holidays up the kazoo. Therefore, there are more hours worked in the USA than in a European plant.
4. Industrial land (zoned for manufacturing) is cheaper here than in Europe, and many states (especially in the South) throw incentives at anyone for anything as long as the business ends up in their neighborhood.
5. Transportation costs for the end product and support (parts) is less in the US, since the cars don't have to be shipped over to us.
6. There are no import taxes on cars built in the USA.
I hope you washed your hands after you read that mag you found in the bathroom!!!
Ahem...In that case John, why is it that the Big Three can't seem to "make much money" at buildin' cars HERE these days then?
Do ya think it "just might" have somethin' to do with the "decision-makers" there in Michigan being maybe a little slow to be "pro-active", and look into the future a bit, and maybe invest IN that future...and "maybe" it's not the lineworkers and how much they make then, huh?! 
(don't worry folks...JB and I here go way back to Malibu CA one bright sunny day at an outdoor restaurant about this thing...right, JB?!) 
(BTW...when ya headed back out this way? That was a good day, dude!!!) 
Last edited by Dwight; 08/27/2008 7:05 PM.
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Re: Article I Read In Businessweek
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I'm about 50 miles away from the BMW plant. A few months after it opened, there were Z3 roadsters everywhere on the road, now there are just as many Mini's if not more.
BMW pays there employee's very for the SC economy. I'd get a job there if it was so far of a commute.
George
Freelance Observer
07 BA with 605's, engine dresser bars, and cheap saddle bags.
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Re: Article I Read In Businessweek
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Monkey Butt
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Toyota pays very well. I think they are the largest American car company now. Hmmm, doing all that with American workers too.
The big 3 build more and more every year in Mexico. How is that working out for them?
You are right Dwight, bad business decisions. I don't think its about unions or labor as much as it is business models and decisions made at the top.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Monkey Butt
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I blame Lee Iacocca. Fifty plus years ago, when he was at Ford, he introduced the idea of paying for cars through an extended payment plan. That allowed management to raise the price of their cars much higher than they could have otherwise. Then they could give in to union demands, forgo strikes, spend money they wouldn’t otherwise have and generally get real lazy. That worked until they faced real competition. They’ve been trying to work their way out of that ever since.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Article I Read In Businessweek
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Quote:
whats the fairtax?
http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer
hum nothing but a dream if we let it... this is worth fighting for, it won't go anywhere if people keep this "dream" attitude. thank God our founding fathers didn't think that way... anyway, this would be a HUGE boost to our economy, it can happen if you get behind it. All you have to do is tell your reps and senators to support it... I've done that with great success.
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Re: Article I Read In Businessweek
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Fe Butt
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I would have to read more about it but just skimming that link I don't think I like that idea.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Article I Read In Businessweek
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Learned Hand
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stuff costs too much because everybody wants too much money for everything they do
But if everyone is making so much, wouldn't they have lots of money to buy things? Economics is a circle that includes the produce/earn/spend cycle. You can't analyze only part of that cycle and come away with meaningful results. In fact, goods are more expensive now because the dollar is losing value. That's due in large part to wasting billions in Iraq, allowing China to buy our debt, and refusing to recognize that a free society can't compete successfully with slave labor. At the rate we're going, we'll be lucky if the US economy doesn't resemble third-world in 10-15 years.
Jack
'08 America Blue/White; Custom Headlamps, Custom Lowers, Clearview 20", Bafflectomy
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Re: Article I Read In Businessweek
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Old Hand
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Funny how the only products made in America these days are not American.
Let's hope there's intelligent life somewhere in space 'cause it's buggar all down here. -- Monte Python
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Re: Article I Read In Businessweek
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Old Hand
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I blame Lee Iacocca. Then they could give in to union demands, forgo strikes, spend money they wouldn’t otherwise have and generally get real lazy. That worked until they faced real competition. They’ve been trying to work their way out of that ever since.
They should have learned from old Henry. He found that it is much cheaper to have a strike than to lay off people and you lose fewer of your better workers. So, when the inventories got too high, he would simply do something to stir up the union.
Let's hope there's intelligent life somewhere in space 'cause it's buggar all down here. -- Monte Python
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Re: Article I Read In Businessweek
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I would have to read more about it but just skimming that link I don't think I like that idea.
I, at first had mixed feelings about it but then I educated my self and now I'm a hardcore supporter of this bill.
There has been two books written by John Linder (my representative), and Neal Boortz; the first one explains how it works the second one is about rebuttals to those who oppose it... it would be the greatest transfer of power from the government to the people and there it is the challenge, politicians are going to fight to keep their power. Anyway, might be getting a bit off topic here but if you have any questions PM me, I might be able to answer them but the best thing to do is to read the first book, buy it cheap used or get it from your local library.
My name is Angel and I approve this message 
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Re: Article I Read In Businessweek
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Ahem...In that case John, why is it that the Big Three can't seem to "make much money" at buildin' cars HERE these days then?
Well, Dwight, ONE of the MANY reasons is that European and Asian companies can set up shop here with new employees and not have to pay entitlements (pensions, med benefits, etc.)to retirees until 15 or so years down the road. American car companies (as well as other 'legacy' industries) are having to bear not only payroll and manufacturing expenses, they have to accomodate those workers who have retired and are living well beyond the age predicted by mortality tables when they first hired on.
Yet ANOTHER reason that American car companies aren't doing well here in the USA is because the fickle and spoiled American public perceives American company cars as asthetically inferior and lacking cache' when compared to Asian and European imports. Their egos won't allow them to be seen driving an American car when the Jones have a Lexus in their garage.
Out of respect for you, I will not mention the UAW and their role in the dire straits that American car companies have found themselves in.
Finally, ever hear of the Hummer?
JB
"Long live the Duck Force!"
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Re: Article I Read In Businessweek
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Ive always felt that american engineering is lacking compared to european and asian engineering. Im sure alot of us here ride triumphs for that reason as well. If you look at alot of average american cars you can see the huge clearances between the body and the headlights as well as alot of other little things like that. And thats only on the outside.
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Re: Article I Read In Businessweek
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Some good points there John, especially about the present seemingly pervasive american mindset that american cars are inferior in quality and low on the "cachet meter". Quote:
Finally, ever hear of the Hummer?
Yeah, I have! Did you used to date Susan Globheimer TOO??? 
(sorry...cheap joke there, ol' buddy!)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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actually its almost the opposite (or used to be) with american trucks. Their cachet value is definately held in higher regard to dudes that feel manly inferior for driving a "jap truck" The job sites used to be a gm/ford/dodge dealer lot. But now the asian companies are building here so that american truck "gotta have" is dipping a bit.
a toyota next to the dodge next to the harley in each garage...haha
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Re: Article I Read In Businessweek
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Quote:
I would have to read more about it but just skimming that link I don't think I like that idea.
I, at first had mixed feelings about it but then I educated my self and now I'm a hardcore supporter of this bill.
There has been two books written by John Linder (my representative), and Neal Boortz; the first one explains how it works the second one is about rebuttals to those who oppose it... it would be the greatest transfer of power from the government to the people and there it is the challenge, politicians are going to fight to keep their power. Anyway, might be getting a bit off topic here but if you have any questions PM me, I might be able to answer them but the best thing to do is to read the first book, buy it cheap used or get it from your local library.
My name is Angel and I approve this message
The only problem is collecting the tax. Sure, we will all pay the tax when we purchase things, but will those businesses, especially cash-heavy businesses, actually forward those funds to the govt? Seems awfully ripe for fraud. The number of govt. employees required to insure compliance may exceed the number that are there now.
I don't have a better answer either - just being a fly in the ointment...
Women and cats will do as they please. Men and dogs should just get used to that fact and relax
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Re: Article I Read In Businessweek
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Fe Butt
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Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Article I Read In Businessweek
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I don't really remember Susan all that well. Of course it WAS kinda dark... 
JB
"Long live the Duck Force!"
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Re: Article I Read In Businessweek
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Complete Newb
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Complete Newb
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Quote:
Quote:
Ahem...In that case John, why is it that the Big Three can't seem to "make much money" at buildin' cars HERE these days then?
Well, Dwight, ONE of the MANY reasons is that European and Asian companies can set up shop here with new employees and not have to pay entitlements (pensions, med benefits, etc.)to retirees until 15 or so years down the road. American car companies (as well as other 'legacy' industries) are having to bear not only payroll and manufacturing expenses, they have to accomodate those workers who have retired and are living well beyond the age predicted by mortality tables when they first hired on.
+1 for that, although I wouldn't blame it totally on the unions, it takes to tango.
Plus the bad business decisions the Big 3 make, they are very good at being three years behind the rest of the automotive world. Everytime we look to buy a car we really try to buy American, but no offense meant to anyone, they just are not quite as good. The one American vehicle we do own is a Chevy pick-up truck.
In the land of the insane when you look around and find you are like everyone else, you discover that you are normal.
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Re: Article I Read In Businessweek
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Monkey Butt
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Certainly people will evade a sales tax, they already do. But they evade the income tax too. There are several huge advantages to a sales tax. It’s much simpler, the tax code would be a tiny fraction of its current size. Hundreds of billions of dollars and countless millions of man hours are wasted dealing with the income tax code, that money and time could be diverted to productive endeavors.
Money made from savings and investments is not taxed so there is more incentive to save and invest. It would get the government out of your financial business. It would make the US much more competitive since goods sold overseas would not have tax built in, as they now do.
Everyone would again be a taxpayer, now the top 10% of income earners pay the vast majority of income taxes and 50% pay little or nothing . If everyone pays taxes then everyone cares about tax rates.
Since sales taxes are collected by the states it would make them more powerful relative to the feds. The advantage there is that next time congress tries to blackmail the states into doing something they can respond by not sending in the feds cut. It would also give the government much fewer opportunities the screw with us. No more tinkering with the tax code to advance the favorite social policy of the day.
Disadvantages are few but significant. The relatively poor must use a higher percentage of their income to pay the taxes. That could be offset by exempting food and certain basic necessities.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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New Tires
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You've pretty much got it expained. But, with most flat tax proposals I've read, the poor get a rebate every year to bring their income up to a defined minimum.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Article I Read In Businessweek
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Bar Shake
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Quote:
Since sales taxes are collected by the states it would make them more powerful relative to the feds. The advantage there is that next time congress tries to blackmail the states into doing something they can respond by not sending in the feds cut.
Stop,  you're killing me!!!
You've just explained why it'll never happen.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Article I Read In Businessweek
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Bar Shake
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Oh, in my garage/driveway: A Triumph, a Pontiac, two Chevys, a Toyota.
Guess which is U.S. built.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Article I Read In Businessweek
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Re: Article I Read In Businessweek
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How about the Automated Payment Transaction Tax? www.apttax.comNo income tax, no sales tax necessary. Every time money goes into or out of a financial institution, it's taxed at less than 1%. No tax code, no tax breaks, no hassle. It's hardly noticeable, and completely equitable.
SFC, US Army (Ret)
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Re: Article I Read In Businessweek
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Old Hand
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Ive always felt that american engineering is lacking compared to european and asian engineering.
Then, explain the VW 1600TL, Ruin-O and Traubant? Ever see a self leveling torsion bar Packard doing pushups at a redlight like the air over hydraulic Citroen?
Did you know that the first auto shifters used by Rolls Royce were GM dual range Hydromatics and Mercedes used Studebaker Automatic Drive because neither were successful at making their own?
Ever notice that, in the 70's and 80's, Japanese vehicles had headlights that would dim when the turn signals flashed because they used undersize wire?
Ever notice that Japan.inc was totally unable to make a V8 until they broke their old rules and hired American engineers? When Toyopet (now Toyota) tried to make their first car, they built a copy of a DeSoto and tried to power it with a copy of the 221 cubic inch Ford V8. When they gave up trying to cast the cylinder block, they went with a copy of the Chevy 6. They didn't want to use the DeSoto engine because it was too complicated for them.
For that matter, they didn't even know how to make a motorcycle in Japan until Harley licensed out their flathead design to them and set them up a factory to make it. Even then, they did a really third rate job of making them.
Ever adjust the fanbelt on an air cooled VW? There are shims behind the pulley on the generator to align the belt. There are shims in the pulley to loosen the belt tension and there are shims in front of the pulley to use in the adjustment. As the belt stretches, you disassemble the pulley and move shims out of the middle to the front. Of course, this makes it narrower but only moves one side and the center effectively moves, so you have to occasionally add a few shims behind to realign the belt. On American cars of the same era, you loosen a bolt, pull the generator to tension the belt and tighten the bolt. Toyotas from those days used a jack screw to move the generator. By the way, typical of Asian bolts of that time, the jack screw looked like the threads were chewed by a dog and was very easily stripped.
Let's hope there's intelligent life somewhere in space 'cause it's buggar all down here. -- Monte Python
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Re: Article I Read In Businessweek
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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At least in the Asian case they mostly took our designs and just made them cheaper than we could. In some cases they improved upon our designs but they were still our designs.
Interesting about Rolls and Mercedes , I didn't know that.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Article I Read In Businessweek
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Quote:
Quote:
Ive always felt that american engineering is lacking compared to european and asian engineering.
Then, explain the VW 1600TL, Ruin-O and Traubant? Ever see a self leveling torsion bar Packard doing pushups at a redlight like the air over hydraulic Citroen?
Did you know that the first auto shifters used by Rolls Royce were GM dual range Hydromatics and Mercedes used Studebaker Automatic Drive because neither were successful at making their own?
Ever notice that, in the 70's and 80's, Japanese vehicles had headlights that would dim when the turn signals flashed because they used undersize wire?
Ever notice that Japan.inc was totally unable to make a V8 until they broke their old rules and hired American engineers? When Toyopet (now Toyota) tried to make their first car, they built a copy of a DeSoto and tried to power it with a copy of the 221 cubic inch Ford V8. When they gave up trying to cast the cylinder block, they went with a copy of the Chevy 6. They didn't want to use the DeSoto engine because it was too complicated for them.
For that matter, they didn't even know how to make a motorcycle in Japan until Harley licensed out their flathead design to them and set them up a factory to make it. Even then, they did a really third rate job of making them.
Ever adjust the fanbelt on an air cooled VW? There are shims behind the pulley on the generator to align the belt. There are shims in the pulley to loosen the belt tension and there are shims in front of the pulley to use in the adjustment. As the belt stretches, you disassemble the pulley and move shims out of the middle to the front. Of course, this makes it narrower but only moves one side and the center effectively moves, so you have to occasionally add a few shims behind to realign the belt. On American cars of the same era, you loosen a bolt, pull the generator to tension the belt and tighten the bolt. Toyotas from those days used a jack screw to move the generator. By the way, typical of Asian bolts of that time, the jack screw looked like the threads were chewed by a dog and was very easily stripped.
I was speaking more on the modern terms. I guess I shouldve said that. But I obviously wasnt comparing what Japan put out when they first started flooding the market. Of course they ripped off everyone elses designs. You dont make money by reinventing the wheel. You build the company, earn the money, and then improve the wheel.
Yes the US set the standard in alot of areas of automotive engineering, but they lost it. I never said european/asian manufacturers were flawless, they all have their own quirks and bad designs in them. But theres tons of things to be listed for american designs as well.
Either way you cant compare todays nissan/toyota car to a dodge/gm/ford car. The US lost higher regard on cars a while ago, and American trucks are on their way out the door too.
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Old Hand
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Oddly enough, there are Chevy and Toyota models being built on the same assembly line from the same parts by the same people. The only differences are in the brand labels and minor trim changes. Yet, the average person on the street will swear that the Toyotas are far better than the Chevies.
Now, about the differences between a few years ago and today. Japan.inc engaged in some questionable marketing practices aimed at putting gaijin (foreign devil) companies out of business. The eventual result was an ever increasing number of American engineers desperate for work.
At the same time, those businesses strong enough to hang on became desperate enough to put business majors in charge of everything including product design.
Then, there was a movement spearheaded by Honda to setup factories in their market countries in order to get around import limits, shipping costs, and use up someone else's resources. They were shocked to find that the "stupid lazy American workers" turned out such better products at such lower cost that a major export to Japan from the US is Japanese products.
The end result is that American products are a lot of crap designed by business majors and made in countries where quality is unheard of. At the same time, Japan.inc has a lot of well designed products developed by American engineers that are being well constructed by American production workers.
Now, all of this just seems wrong to me. Why can't American businesses wake up and realize that they can't compete against well designed well made US products being made by foreign companies with foreign made crap? The only difference in now and 1960 is that the superior US made products are making money for foreign interests while US companies are loosing their arses trying to pedal cheap imports.
Let's hope there's intelligent life somewhere in space 'cause it's buggar all down here. -- Monte Python
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Re: Article I Read In Businessweek
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Quote:
The only difference in now and 1960 is that the superior US made products are making money for foreign interests while US companies are loosing their arses trying to pedal cheap imports.
...and gas guzzling home-grown SUVs, of course.
Yep, "maybe" those Japan Inc cars are "cheap", but they also seem to have a good reputation for reliability(whether deserved or not) with the american buying public. That is, before the american buying public throws them away after they're "used up". And I say "throws them away" because most of the american car buying public are NOT "Car Guys" and thus basically use their cars for sheer utilitarian purposes. Maybe that's why, as good as the Packard torsion-bar suspension was designed and executed, the car company who's slogan was "Ask the man who owns one" deceases to exist nowdays?!
Nope GB. I agree with ya about the "Business Majors" mis-managing the american companies alright, but once again, the reason every time the price of gas spikes the american companies are caught with their collective pants down, such as in the '74 "Gas Crisis", which allowed Japan Inc it's first chance to get it's "foot in the door", is that Japan Inc. evidently can read the future trends in the market, anticipate them, and bring to market the cars that americans want and need much better than those American "Business Majors", who aren't REALLY "car guys", can.
And this situation has also just gotten worse since 1974, as anybody can plainly see.
Where was the "American-built Prius" 5 years ago when Toyota brought it to market? Say what you will about it's overcomplicated design, the problem with what to do with the used batteries, and such, but it DID catch on with the american BUYING public, didn't it?
(and "catching on with the public and at the right time" is ALWAYS the bottom line, isn't it?!)
Last edited by Dwight; 09/04/2008 3:58 PM.
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Article I Read In Businessweek
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 247
Adjunct
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Adjunct
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 247 |
I think Greybeard has hit the nail on the head there. He is deffinetly speaking from the experience of years of observation. I've watched this evoloution from simuilar eyes, shaking my head, and woundering what in the heck these people are thinking. I feel the same way right now at the company I work for, when managemant comes down with a new idea, and The handwriting is on the wall. BTW. Earlier someone said we Americans have to have our toys, like motorcycles. At 50 miles to a gallon and a 50 mile round trip to work, my bike is a necessity. 20 MPG. in my Blazer is just getting to painfull to bear. 
Chip Sciarra "07" America, N.C.Switch Blade windshield, Moto Lights, Tri. Off Road pipes
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