 Frog has died
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,690
Learned Hand
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OP
Learned Hand
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,690 |
Well, it's official..I have officially screwed up my beloved frog. At 27,000 miles, the engine just did'nt seem right to me...I decided to check valve clearances, and found them to be WAY out...I talked to Chy, and he advised adjutment before further operation. I pulled the valve cover, and took all the measurements, ordered shims, and began to re-assemble her tonight, with John's help (Big Poppy)..I thought I did everything right, drew pictures, and assumed the cams would only go in one way. WRONG...we rotated the engine via back wheel, and then decided to kick her over with the starter after experiencing a "stuck" position...BAD IDEA...We seen that all the gaps now on the exhaust valves were like a 1/4 inch...Installed spark plugs, no compression...determined all 4 exhaust valves bent, to different degrees from spinning over engine with cams installed incorrectly. Will pull pipes Monday and inspect piston tops for scarring...We're not 100% sure this has happened, all I know is there's no compression, and to me, the head has to come off....All 4 intake valve clearances correct...You can actually see the buckets on the exhaust side recessed further in than the intake buckets, Popped keepers out of one exhaust valve, valve moves freely, and appears to be seating..something definitely wrong...Frikkin devastated.... 
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Re: Frog has died
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,721 Likes: 5
Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,721 Likes: 5 |
Mark, man that really sucks. If you need some top end parts, let me know, I will have valves and buckets and springs and shims available soon. Hope you can get it fixed somehow easily.
Always remember to be yourself. Unless you suck. Then pretend to be someone else.
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Re: Frog has died
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,072 Likes: 80
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,072 Likes: 80 |
Dang Mark... that sucks. Really sorry to here that man.
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Re: Frog has died
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,195 Likes: 56
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,195 Likes: 56 |
Really sorry to hear that man, not much worse can happen at this point in the riding season. With a little luck maybe you can get away with new valves and lap them in.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Frog has died
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 18,825
"Lighten up, Francis."
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"Lighten up, Francis."
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 18,825 |
I can completely relate. I did the same thing a little over a year ago. Order your valves NOW. They take forever to get here.
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Re: Frog has died
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 467
Adjunct
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Adjunct
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 467 |
It's more money,but if the stock valves are going to be awhile getting to you? Maybe it's time to have those larger valves put in at the machine shop.May pay off in the end since you are going to have to pull the head off anyway.
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Re: Frog has died
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,643
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,643 |
Keeping my fingers crossed for ya Mark, that the pistons are alright
Ray(UK)
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Re: Frog has died
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,690
Learned Hand
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OP
Learned Hand
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,690 |
My confidence as a mechanic has dropped immensely...Now I have 2 dead Triumphs in the garage...Screw it, taking Kimmy's bike and doing Cherohala Skyway with John and the guys today...
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Re: Frog has died
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,525
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,525 |
good idea. clear your head before you jump back in
Erwin
05 America
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Re: Frog has died
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 175
Adjunct
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Adjunct
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 175 |
Man, I really feel for you, I'm not that confident about getting into the internals, I'd be gutted, riding season starting as well... Hoping its not to serious...
05 SM Neon Blue/Black. Thunder Bike Cams & Pipes & Flowed Head. AI&Snork removed, Airbox Mods, 135mains, 42/17T, 140x80x17" TBS Front Wheel
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Re: Frog has died
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821 |
You'll need to check the heads to be sure nothing's damaged from the pressure of bending valves. Ditto the pistons. Might be time for a big bore. 
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Frog has died
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,068 Likes: 1
Saddle Sore
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Saddle Sore
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,068 Likes: 1 |
Quote:
My confidence as a mechanic has dropped immensely
Naahhh , you 're STILL better at repairing 717 's than we ever were . If I ever get me a Boeing , you're gonna be my personal lead tech .
Now what's ZOOM GIRL gonna ride ?
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Re: Frog has died
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,690
Learned Hand
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OP
Learned Hand
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,690 |
"Zoom Girl" will still ride her bike..gotta get a tech manual and win the lottery....
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Re: Frog has died
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 21
Complete Newb
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Complete Newb
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 21 |
i have both a used and a brand new head i may be able to make a deal on either should you need parts.
i also have a pair of complete stock pistons that have less than 2500 miles on them the rings barely had time to seat. so if your pistons are damaged thats covered.
its not the end of the world just gonna take a little $$ to get back.
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Re: Frog has died
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,690
Learned Hand
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OP
Learned Hand
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,690 |
"Big Bore" my Butt....not gonna happen..Don't have that kind of cash, and want to keep everything UN modified as possible. Exhaust off this morning, rotating right inboard exhaust valve, you can see valve "wobbleing" in seat...Almost got the head off....
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Re: Frog has died
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 8,639 Likes: 3
Old Hand
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Old Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 8,639 Likes: 3 |
Quote:
i also have a pair of complete stock pistons that have less than 2500 miles on them the rings barely had time to seat. so if your pistons are damaged thats covered.
I'm thinking it would a good idea to take that offer. Even if there is no visible damage to your pistons, there are probably stress points that will begin cracking under combustion pressure.
Let's hope there's intelligent life somewhere in space 'cause it's buggar all down here. -- Monte Python
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Re: Frog has died
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,690
Learned Hand
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OP
Learned Hand
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,690 |
Great...more good news....Anyway..the head is off, pistons have ZERO damage, just carbon removed from valves striking, metal is okay. All 4 exhaust valve visibly bent...cleaning her up...this does'nt look too hard at all...Gotta get a book though...
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Re: Frog has died
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,668
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,668 |
I feel your pain. I rushed a valve adjustment last fall and wound up with all 4 intakes bent and a hole in 1 piston.   I used the "opportunity" to do a big bore.  Hope you get back on the road quickly, but not in a hurry. That's what causes these sort of mishaps... 
Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come; He will guide you in all truth:
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Re: Frog has died
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,643
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,643 |
Quote:
Great...more good news....Anyway..the head is off, pistons have ZERO damage, just carbon removed from valves striking, metal is okay. All 4 exhaust valve visibly bent...cleaning her up...this does'nt look too hard at all...Gotta get a book though...
Looks like you got off pretty lightly Mark, now just take your time when rebuilding the motor 
Ray(UK)
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Re: Frog has died
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,150
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,150 |
Sorry to hear about this Mark. I do appreciate your telling us what happened though cos I wasn't aware the valves would bend if we inadvertantly swapped them. At least you have helped others know what the consequences are then  Hope you can keep updating us on your progress. Cheers 
Staintune Pipes, K&N Pods, 45 pilots, TBS needles and 145 mains.
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Re: Frog has died
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 18,825
"Lighten up, Francis."
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"Lighten up, Francis."
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 18,825 |
Replacing the valves (installing the keepers, specifically) is a PITA. I took my head to a local mechanic and we used his drill press as a spring compressor. Worked well but it was a two-man job.
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Re: Frog has died
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,690
Learned Hand
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OP
Learned Hand
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,690 |
Looking for tools now...need valve spring compressor, and good torque wrench...Have identified cams thanks to "How to" section..I know, a little late. Can anyone supply torque values for the cylinder head nuts? Have torques for everything else...having problem obtaining manual...
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Re: Frog has died
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,971
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,971 |
Sorry to hear of your plight.
S'pose it wouldn't hurt to mic the cam lobes to be sure they're OK.
A short oil change cycle after rebuild wouldn't hurt either, blurted Captain Obvious. ;-)
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Re: Frog has died
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,668
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,668 |
Quote:
Looking for tools now...need valve spring compressor, and good torque wrench...Have identified cams thanks to "How to" section..I know, a little late. Can anyone supply torque values for the cylinder head nuts? Have torques for everything else...having problem obtaining manual...
stage 1- 20Nm, stage 2- 30Nm, stage3- angle tighten 90 degrees...per Haynes manual. 
Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come; He will guide you in all truth:
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Re: Frog has died
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,690
Learned Hand
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OP
Learned Hand
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,690 |
Angle tighten? 90 degrees right, nothing special? And I will use pattern as well...
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Re: Frog has died
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,668
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,668 |
Quote:
Angle tighten? 90 degrees right, nothing special? And I will use pattern as well...
Yep, nothing special.
Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come; He will guide you in all truth:
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Re: Frog has died
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,690
Learned Hand
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OP
Learned Hand
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,690 |
Can't find one of the exhaust valve keepers...anybody got one...will check with Atlanta Triumph Ducati... No, it ain't in the engine, dropped oil pan...nothin in it...ready to go back together..just waiting on parts...4 valves, (thanks Dave), cylinder head gasket ($48) side cover gasket, oil pan gasket...taking head to work tomorrow to remove valves...
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Re: Frog has died *DELETED*
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 21
Complete Newb
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Complete Newb
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 21 |
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Re: Frog has died
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821 |
Quote:
i dissagree and suggest you find the specs for a 3/8" bolt or 10mm bolt as i think this was intended for a no re-tourque setting.
No.
Follow the manufacturers specification. They've engineered it, and you are working with aluminum here.
From the Triumph service manual:
NOTE:
' Use se¡vice tool 3880105-T0301 to ensure
accuracy when angle-tightening.
CAUTION: Failure to use the correct
procedure to tighten the cylinder head
nuts could result in failure of the cylinder head
gasket.
The 90 degrees is apparently critical, so mark it somehow, use a protractor perhaps.
Last edited by bigbill; 05/27/2008 11:41 PM.
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Re: Frog has died
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,668
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,668 |
Quote:
Quote:
i dissagree and suggest you find the specs for a 3/8" bolt or 10mm bolt as i think this was intended for a no re-tourque setting.
No.
Follow the manufacturers specification. They've engineered it, and you are working with aluminum here.
From the Triumph service manual:
NOTE:
' Use se¡vice tool 3880105-T0301 to ensure
accuracy when angle-tightening.
CAUTION: Failure to use the correct
procedure to tighten the cylinder head
nuts could result in failure of the cylinder head
gasket.
The 90 degrees is apparently critical, so mark it somehow, use a protractor perhaps.
+1 FOLLOW DIRECTIONS!
Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come; He will guide you in all truth:
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Re: Frog has died
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 21
Complete Newb
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Complete Newb
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 21 |
 "The 90 degrees is apparently critical, so mark it somehow, use a protractor perhaps." definatly out of my league here, if you need me i'll be home reading the national inquirer.
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Re: Frog has died
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,690
Learned Hand
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OP
Learned Hand
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,690 |
I appreciate and need EVERYONES opinions and input...I have received the entire manual via e-mail, and 4 valves arrived yesterday...Have all valves out (including intakes), and cylinder head is spotless, ready to go back together...Awaiting valve spring compressor (friend at work bringing), and gaskets...Atlanta Ducati / Triumph says mid next week on the gaskets, and $116...Lapping all valve seats and valves today, Shooting for Fathers day for engine to be running....
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Re: Frog has died
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,195 Likes: 56
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,195 Likes: 56 |
Make sure when lapping you do just enough to grey the seat and valve sealing surface, don't want to grind them too far into the seat. Lap with back and forth motion do not try to do it with a drill. There are special lapping tools that are basicly a stick with a suction cup on the end that you roll back and forth between your palms like you were trying to start a fire with a stick. Also be sure to match 1 valve with 1 position so the same valve goes back in the same spot it was lapped in.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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