 Now there's a record to be proud of
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Old Hand
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OP
Old Hand
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23392251/I guess the US needs the judges to be even more lenient. This would probably be upward of 10% if all were locked up that should be.
Let's hope there's intelligent life somewhere in space 'cause it's buggar all down here. -- Monte Python
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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I did a quick search but couldn't find any statistics on how many are in prison for victimless crimes.
Or for non-violent offenses where justice might be better served by non-institutional supervision and paying restitution.
Could be some enlightening information.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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It's a sad commentary on our society in any case.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Adjunct
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Adjunct
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We need to be spending the money on education, treatment and child welfare (getting kids out, or teaching them alternatives to criminal lifestyles). Problem is you can't just take the money from the prison/jail systems and throw it at the other programs without a plan - and no one seem to want to fund the planning to make it work! And I don't know that there ARE any victimless crimes - even the non-violent, property only crimes make victims, if at least you and me in the terms of higher prices, higher insurance costs.  Ok done.... Becky
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Hey I worked on Folsom, Delano, Mule creek. But what the story didn't talk about was the amount of drug offenses that were incarcerated!
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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"Lighten up, Francis."
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"Lighten up, Francis."
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Just waiting for this one to go off the rails...
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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Quote:
Hey I worked on Folsom, Delano, Mule creek. But what the story didn't talk about was the amount of drug offenses that were incarcerated!
Part of what I was talking about as "victimless" crimes.
Yeah, I know, we could get into a civics discussion and philosophize about it, and of course sometimes there are victims; but how much of that is caused by the very illegality to start with?
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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Quote:
Just waiting for this one to go off the rails...
In the shuffling madness.....................................
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
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I have said for years that drug crimes should be in many cases decriminalized and treated. Unless this is a smuggler or other crimes are involved but your average user should be treated and in many cases small time dealers should be at worst fined and house arrest. If they keep doing it them the punishment should get stiffer.When I say small time dealer I mean the guy selling a little to support his own habbit not the guy supplying dealers or have a huge clientel and large amounts. I have said for a long time pot should be made legal and sold at state type stores (bars,or anywhere they get a lic. to do so like alcohol)and taxed. I do not use any drugs or drink at all or even smoke cigarettes but those are my views.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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I also think those numbers are inflated with the stupid minimum mandatory drug laws. Even when they repeal these antiques the prisoners cannot get out. The war on drugs was lost many, many, years ago.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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After the 3 strike laws there can be no common sense in sentencing just mandatory! Don't get me wrong I work very close to inmate population and I believe we need to incarcerate the violent criminal and don't get me started on the death penalty!
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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only thing death houses need is an express lane.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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Quote:
only thing death houses need is an express lane.
I dunno.
As long as rich murderers can get off by hiring highly skilled legal teams and poor(er) people get the death sentence on far less evidence, then the death penalty should be off the table.
Don't get me wrong, there are cases that scream for the death penalty.
But it's overused.
The death penalty should only be an option where the evidence is overwhelming; DNA, video, etc.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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I was kidding to a certain extent but keeping guys on death row for 20,30 or so years is crazy. I could in reality go either way on that one I feel the truely guilty need to be disposed of instead of tax payer money supporting them for years on end but then on the other hand recently DNA has freed a few innocents from death row that were there for quite awhile. So would it be better to kill a few innocents by accident or support the guilty for years on end? Quite the predicament. Guys like John Wayne Gasey, or Jeffery Dahmer or a few others, should they have appeal after appeal and be supported for years? Or just do away with them fast? I know Dahmer is a bad example since he was killed in short order in jail by another inmate but just illustrating the point.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Saddle Sore
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Saddle Sore
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I know it says "Americans", but I wonder if illegal aliens are part of the numbers. There's no mention in the article.
More flags
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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I do know in California the (illegal) inmates are a substantial part of the overcrowding.
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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Quote:
Just waiting for this one to go off the rails...
I's staying out of this one. 
Soren
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Arguing that the death penalty should not be used because rich people can get out of it is like arguing that imprisonment or fines should be abolished for the same reason. No system, devised by man, can ever be perfect. But, we should endeavor to bring as much justice to the justice system as possible. In today’s world justice is neither swift nor sure. Criminals usually have long rap sheets before they get any time behind bars. A fifty year old man who rapes and murders a child can be assured of dying of old age, or by the hands of his fellow criminals, even in a state where they kill such monsters.
There was a time when prison was not punishment but a place where a convict awaited punishment. Maybe we need to get back to that. If petty criminals were displayed in stocks at the mall and drug dealers required to work on chain gangs in their old neighborhoods perhaps crime would be less attractive. Shame and humiliation are powerful social tools, maybe we should start using them again.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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CNN is reporting that 20,000 are able to apply for release. It appears the crack arrest were lumped with the cocaine and the mandatory issues have been overturned. Wow! did we think of that first!! 
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Old Hand
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OP
Old Hand
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The ideal way to take care of the drug problems is to legalize all drugs to be sold at the manufacturing cost only by a government agency. That would put the dealers and smugglers out of business. Then, considering the problems of dealing with every other government agency, the addicts would soon give up and take up some other hobby.
Let's hope there's intelligent life somewhere in space 'cause it's buggar all down here. -- Monte Python
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Joined: May 2007
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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Quote:
The ideal way to take care of the drug problems is to legalize all drugs to be sold at the manufacturing cost only by a government agency. That would put the dealers and smugglers out of business. Then, considering the problems of dealing with every other government agency, the addicts would soon give up and take up some other hobby.
I pretty much agree since the "War on Drugs" has been a 40 year failure. It's been said over and over that America doesn't have so much a crime problem and a drug and alcohol problem; be nice to see so stats to back that up or refute it.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Quote:
Just waiting for this one to go off the rails...
Maybe, but i would hate to miss out on this one.
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I have said for a long time pot should be made legal and sold at state type stores (bars,or anywhere they get a lic. to do so like alcohol)and taxed. I do not use any drugs or drink at all or even smoke cigarettes but those are my views.
Amen to that. I haven't smoked any for years and years, and i'm not even sure if i would if they made it legal. However i think the fact that it is ilegal is simply rediculous.
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I pretty much agree since the "War on Drugs" has been a 40 year failure.
That war was lost the day it was declaired.
Interesting storey for you. Here in TN the DEA is a totally self funded program. The money they receive from drug busts goes straight back into their own program. The I-75 interstate conecting Florida to the North is a major drug corridor. I have always wonder why the DEA officers concentrate on stopping people heading south, when all the drugs are heading north. Turns out that by stopping the drug smugglers heading south they get to keep all the money that they were going to use to buy the drugs. If they confiscate the drugs heading North they cannot make any money from it as they have to burn it.
Last week they stopped a bus close to where i am with $1.5 million in cash heading to Florida.
Arsenalfan. AKA Mark Able
Seller of fine automobiles.
Jaguar, Land Rover, Porsche of Chattanooga
423-424-4000
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Old Hand
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OP
Old Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 8,639 Likes: 3 |
If that were the California cops, they'd be stopping the northbound traffic and keeping the drugs for themselves. 
Let's hope there's intelligent life somewhere in space 'cause it's buggar all down here. -- Monte Python
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
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I can't believe the war on drugs has lasted so long. You would think they would have taken a hint from poabition. That didn't work but they has sense enough to repeal it. I don't think hard drugs are a good idea but if you throw a guy in jail for using all you do is take a person with a problem and make him a criminal with a problem. Since that person will probably come out a criminal and mad at the world so in effect the problem has been made worse.Pot should be totally legal, I smoked it when I was younger and started 2 businesses , I built houses for years with several employees at all times. When it got too hard to make ends meet I started my towing business.I was totally able to function, it didn't make me use other drugs in fact I had quit drinking and smoking cigarettes long before I quit smoking that so to me the argument that it leads to other drugs is rediculous, better outlaw alcohol again if thats the case because if pot leads to other drugs then alcohol must too since it hinders the mind and body far worse.I quit many years ago now because it was adversely effecting my breathing , I was getting out of breath too quickly. So if it was legal I wouldn't smoke it anyway but that in no way changes my views on the subject. I wouldn't want people smoking it near me any more than I do cigarettes. Even though I think it smells much better.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Joined: Jun 2007
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Quote:
Quote:
Just waiting for this one to go off the rails...
Maybe, but i would hate to miss out on this one.
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I have said for a long time pot should be made legal and sold at state type stores (bars,or anywhere they get a lic. to do so like alcohol)and taxed. I do not use any drugs or drink at all or even smoke cigarettes but those are my views.
Amen to that. I haven't smoked any for years and years, and i'm not even sure if i would if they made it legal. However i think the fact that it is ilegal is simply rediculous.
Quote:
I pretty much agree since the "War on Drugs" has been a 40 year failure.
That war was lost the day it was declaired.
Interesting storey for you. Here in TN the DEA is a totally self funded program. The money they receive from drug busts goes straight back into their own program. The I-75 interstate conecting Florida to the North is a major drug corridor. I have always wonder why the DEA officers concentrate on stopping people heading south, when all the drugs are heading north. Turns out that by stopping the drug smugglers heading south they get to keep all the money that they were going to use to buy the drugs. If they confiscate the drugs heading North they cannot make any money from it as they have to burn it.
Last week they stopped a bus close to where i am with $1.5 million in cash heading to Florida.
This is the reason right here...theres too much money being made off of drugs..its just like speeding tickets. it isnt about a better world anymore. And the ironic part is the prescription drugs are taking over. Its more comfortable to see a housewife dropping some pain medication instead of hitting a bong. Which is worse? honestly?
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Sorry guys I clicked on Neverland up for sale, looked more interesting, apparently it comes up for sale if Whacko Jacko cannot raise 25 million on 19th March I think it said. Also clicked on the Mick Jagger one as well, death threats from the Hells Angels God its good to skint and normal 
Ray(UK)
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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Quote:
Arguing that the death penalty should not be used because rich people can get out of it is like arguing that imprisonment or fines should be abolished for the same reason
Except.
Death is forever.
I do get kind of hung up on the idea that "and justice for all" should mean just that.
I know that the system can't be perfect, But that doesn't mean we should stop trying to get it there.
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There was a time when prison was not punishment but a place where a convict awaited punishment
I'm not quite sure that I get your drift??
An interesting bit of trivia: The word "penitentiary" comes from the same root as the word "repent".
The idea was that criminals would have time to reflect on their behavior and be encouraged to change it so they could be a productive part of society.
Now, however, they are institutions of higher criminal education where one may go in as a minor miscreant, and graduate as a hard core felon.
Your ideas of alternative sentencing have merit.
I think justice would be better served though if a minor offender e.g., a thief, were placed in house arrest (or stocks) for a set period every day, but also required to work and pay restitution of double the damages.
Money is also a deterrent, maybe more so than public humiliation.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,189 Likes: 55 |
well penitentiary came from penitent and the idea was to do penitence. In those days you did time in total silence with nothing but a bible for company.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Joined: Mar 2007
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Adjunct
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Adjunct
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And now the cons are getting free college educations, all the healthy food they want, satellite TV, gyms better than Bally's, and the chance to sit on their buttocks all day and live better than most blue-collar workers do.
I'm all for the days of forced labor and chain gangs.
Oh and prostitution is a victimless crime too - one party gets paid and the other gets laid...where's the victim?
SFC, US Army (Ret)
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
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Quote:
Except.
Death is forever.
I do get kind of hung up on the idea that "and justice for all" should mean just that.
Yes, death is indeed forever. That is the point. The scumbag gets his just deserts and society is done with him forever. The fact that some rich scumbag may be able to fight his way out of the death penalty does not mean it is not the right thing to do for some other scumbag. Just because one piece of human excrement can escape the just punishment for his acts is no reason to allow another to do the same.
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I know that the system can't be perfect, But that doesn't mean we should stop trying to get it there.
Agreed, but there is no reason not to give the very worst criminals the punishment they deserve.
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Quote:
There was a time when prison was not punishment but a place where a convict awaited punishment
I'm not quite sure that I get your drift??
Simple, fines, physical punishment, public humiliation and shaming, indentured servitude at forced labor and the death penalty. Living at the expense of the taxpayers while getting 3 squares, free healthcare, TV and library privileges is not nearly enough punishment for the vilest of criminals.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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"Lighten up, Francis."
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"Lighten up, Francis."
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 18,825 |
Yeah, why the heck is Manson (Charlie, not Marilyn) still drawing breath, wasting taxpayer money?
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
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Quote:
And now the cons are getting all the healthy food they want, gyms better than Bally's, and the chance to sit on their buttocks all day and live better than most blue-collar workers do.
I'm all for the days of forced labor and chain gangs.
Not exactly true, not in all cases anyway. I have friends on the inside and with fuel going up and cost of food going up the food is getting less and the quality is getting worse too.They are living off of commissary food that is also getting more expensive. In many cases most of the gym equipment has been removed so they can't be used as weapons.
I agree we should go back to chain gangs and the prisoners should be paid for that service, I mean a small jail house pay not like minimum wage or anything, then they can use that in the commissary.Chain gang work should be made a privilege as with all the other jobs. If the inmate can't conform to the rules then take the job away and no more pay for him.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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Quote:
Just because one piece of human excrement can escape the just punishment for his acts is no reason to allow another to do the same.
Agree with the idea there.
Let me clarify my point;
Said rich SBs get aquitted on evidence that is called into question. Maybe (and I'm not referring to any particular case) the defendant was indeed not guilty.
The person who has to make do with a public defender, or attorney of lesser skill, would most likely be convicted on the same evidence, even if innocent.
In fact there have been many cases of wrongfully convicted people being given the death sentence: LINK These are just some of those that were caught before the sentence was carried out. How many have been executed for crimes they did not commit? One is too many.
If an innocent person is put to death, justice has not been served, in fact it has been denied. It has been denied to the wrongfully convicted. And it has been denied to the victim as the real killer is likely still free and will never be charged.
Like I said, there are cases that demand the death penalty, but in the absence of overwhelming evidence, no one should be put to death.
Another link
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Not taking a side here but in the case of an innocent being put to death you said nothing about the toll on the family too.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Saddle Sore
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Saddle Sore
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Quote:
Yeah, why the heck is Manson (Charlie, not Marilyn) still drawing breath, wasting taxpayer money?
I don't know why you felt compelled to differentiate there..
Both are nearly equally repugnant.
More flags
More fun!
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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I’ve seen the evidence, in fact I’ve had my nose rubbed in it. But, conjecture and anecdotal stories are not really evidence. Certainly we must be especially certain of a criminal’s guilt before we put them to death. We should always look at all the evidence available and be willing set aside the death penalty if there is not overwhelming evidence of guilt. On the other hand, appeals that do not go to guilt but rather to procedure should be strictly limited and sentences carried out expeditiously. There is no legitimate reason for criminals to live on death row for generations.
Will mistakes be made? Almost certainly! Nothing done by man is perfect, but the system is now such that it will certainly be extremely rare. Over the years I had several friends and acquaintances killed in aircraft or vehicular accidents. We don’t stop flying, driving or riding because of the miniscule possibility that each time we do so may be our last. Similarly, people have spent a lifetime behind bars for crimes they did not commit. Certainly no less an injustice that being put to death. That does not mean we quit locking people away.
As for the families of people wrongly convicted and put to death, I don’t think you’ll find many. But if you do, they will at least have a cause of action and recourse to meaningful redress. Not something that can be said for the families of thousands of murder victims each year.
Some have said that the measure of a society is how it treats its criminals. I disagree, the true measure is how the victims and their families are treated and whether or not justice is done.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 18,825
"Lighten up, Francis."
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"Lighten up, Francis."
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 18,825 |
Quote:
Quote:
Yeah, why the heck is Manson (Charlie, not Marilyn) still drawing breath, wasting taxpayer money?
I don't know why you felt compelled to differentiate there..
Both are nearly equally repugnant.
I can take Marilyn, in small doses. But as far as I know he hasn't killed anyone...
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Saddle Sore
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Saddle Sore
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That's why I said "nearly".. he just makes people sick. 
More flags
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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"Lighten up, Francis."
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"Lighten up, Francis."
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 18,825 |
Really?
A psychotic murder-cult leader who is responsible for the murder of a pregnant woman and many others is almost as repugnant as a goth freakazoid musician?
Really?
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 274
Adjunct
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Adjunct
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 274 |
Kill them (bad guys & girls) all and let God sort 'em out.  As a society, we have an obligation to the present and future members to protect ourselves against any and all forces which present a threat to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The Cold War is a prime example of how deterrence (sp) works. If the bad guys aren't inhibited by the threat of death as punishment for a crime, then kill them for comitting the crime. End result? Fewer bad guys by attrition or fear of the punishment.
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