 Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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This is not designed to be a political thread.
I always thought that in order to be President you had to be a minimum of 35 years old and be born in America. Thats different from being a citizen naturalized or by law. "By Law" meaning if you are on vacation and your wife gives birth in London your kid is not British if you are American. The kid would be a citizen of the U.S. by law as his or her parents were citizens.
Anyhow, if you have to be born in America to be President:
John McCain was born in Panama. His father was an Admiral and his mom was living there as his father was stationed there. He was delivered on an Air Force base in the late 30s in the Panama Canal Zone.
Clearly he is a citizen but he was not born in America.
I see no amendments to the constitution that say foreign territories are the same as U.S. proper.
Just curious to see if we have any constitution experts out there. Don't confuse bases with an embassy. A base is not sovereign. Meaning if a foreign national commits a crime on a base he or she is not tried under U.S. law.
Additionally, the framers never intended for us to have bases anyplace but on U.S. soil so it would never be discussed by them.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Section 1 Aticle II States "No Person except a natural born Citizen , or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States." In 1790 the term was used in the first naturalizatoin law. It stated, "And the children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond sea, or outside the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens ." Ain't Google grand.... 
Last edited by nuthin; 02/07/2008 12:50 AM.
Learning from my mistakes... again and again.
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Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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Since he was born on a U.S. military base, that counts as being born in the U.S. since military instalations are considered a part of the United States.
Soren
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Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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It's because his parents were citizens. He could have been born of non-government service parents in a foreign country hostile to the United States, nowhere near any U.S. installation of any kind and he would still be a natural born citizen.
Missionaries come to mind.
This would apply even if both parents were naturalized (not natural born) U.S. citizens.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Not exactly true Bill my cousins were born in Wales and were Welsh citizens even though my aunt and uncle were and are US citizens. MY cousins are now US citizens. But as far as I know a military base is considered US soil and that is probably the case here so he would have been born a US citizen.
EDIT: Not sure about the hostile part, Wales isn't hostile to us that I am aware of. My uncle was the top engineer for Alcoa Aluminum and was over there on a project so he was living there but not a citizen there.
Last edited by The_Dog33; 02/07/2008 1:04 AM.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
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Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Bill you are right, but the reason his parents citizenship is passed on to him is because of the law stated above...
Learning from my mistakes... again and again.
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Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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Quote:
Not exactly true Bill my cousins were born in Wales and were Welsh citizens even though my aunt and uncle were and are US citizens. MY cousins are now US citizens. But as far as I know a military base is considered US soil and that is probably the case here so he would have been born a US citizen.
EDIT: Not sure about the hostile part, Wales isn't hostile to us that I am aware of. My uncle was the top engineer for Alcoa Aluminum and was over there on a project so he was living there but not a citizen there.
They may have dual citizenship Ian, but are still considered natural born (jus sanguinis) U.S.citizens.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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Quote:
Bill you are right, but the reason his parents citizenship is passed on to him is because of the law stated above...
Right you are, I was just elaborating.
Perhaps somewhat awkwardly.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Dual citizen ship is possible, I can't dispute that because I simply don't know if they had that or not.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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"Lighten up, Francis."
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"Lighten up, Francis."
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The only parallel I can think of is pregnant Chinese women who "visit" Canada to have their baby, thus granting the child Canadian citizenship and allowing her to stay as the mother of the newly minted Canadian citizen. I suppose technically the child must have dual citizenship, I just never thought about it that way before.
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Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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Adjunct
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Adjunct
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Kids born overseas on an installation to citizen parents (or even one citizen parent) are given a normal US birth certificate and considered as born on US soil for all other purposes.
But the case at hand does test the accepted definition...I'll be interested to see how it works out (if it comes to that).
That very thing has been discussed on the Lars Larsen show here (KXL 750 AM).
SFC, US Army (Ret)
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Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S. *DELETED*
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Adjunct
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Adjunct
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________________________________
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Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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Adjunct
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Adjunct
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Im in the air force and if you have a baby on base in any foreign country, it counts as US citizenship. Even if your not married- as longf as the kid is your dependent from the beginning.
Nick Derry
"Whoever dies with the most toys, wins"!
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Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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Old Hand
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Old Hand
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US facilities, (military bases, embassies, consulates, ships and aircraft, etc) are considered to be US soil.
Let's hope there's intelligent life somewhere in space 'cause it's buggar all down here. -- Monte Python
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Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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3/4 Throttle
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3/4 Throttle
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yep your military bases over here are the same as if your in the US you drive on the left outside ( correct side ) go through them gates and you go onto the right. the laws become US and the english police have to be asked in not allowed in.
well thats how it was a few years ago when air shows and open days at chicksands and lakenhealth. dont seem to get those some much know.
2003 black and silver T.B.A A1 removed,Specialty Spares long slashed Pipes .
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Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Quote:
The only parallel I can think of is pregnant Chinese women who "visit" Canada to have their baby, thus granting the child Canadian citizenship and allowing her to stay as the mother of the newly minted Canadian citizen. I suppose technically the child must have dual citizenship, I just never thought about it that way before.
Not a political thread, not a political thread. Don't get me started on this. 
John
Like a dog on a car ride with my tongue in the wind
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Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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My brother was born at the US hospital on post at Bad Kreuznach, Germany and there's never been any discussion of alternate citizenship. He qualifies as a Natural Born Citizen.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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I had a friend in the Navy who had dual Irish-American citizenship, because he was born in Ireland to American parents. But regardless, Military bases are treated equally as sovereign US soil. Regardless, according to the first United States Congress in 1790, they approved an act that declared, "The children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond sea, or outside the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural-born citizens of the United States."
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Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Quote:
And the children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond sea, or outside the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens .
Thats exactly right but in 1790 that was the first naturalization attempt. (law) A citizen qualified by (law) is not considered natural born for the presidency.
The 14th amendment watered that down and confused it even more. Most don't think about the presidency in these issues because that represents a few people in the history of our nation.
I know full well that when U.S. parents have a baby that baby is a citizen. That citizen must be born on U.S. soil though. The only thing to make it not a natural born citizen by (law) would be an amendment. You certainly can't write a law to say you are not a citizen by law 
I thought this would be an interesting thread.
The U.S. military can think about the bases being U.S. soil all they want but that just ain't so.
The President of the United States and the Justice Dept. argued to the Supreme Court that GITMO is not U.S. soil and is not under the jurisdiction of U.S. laws.
The supreme court disagreed and the Dept of justice and the president feel so strongly about it that they have not complied with the order of the court. However the Supreme Court said it is subject to our laws but never said it is U.S. soil. We all know the soil belongs to the country we are in. They can tell us to leave any time as we are not an occupying force.
That gives me an idea for another thread. If the Supreme Court rules against the president and the Dept. of Justice and he says "kiss my patooty" who enforces it. Maybe the guy with the biggest stick makes the law. That being the case GITMO is not subject to U.S. law = Panama is not U.S. soil.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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Quote:
The U.S. military can think about the bases being U.S. soil all they want but that just ain't so.
In the physical sense you are correct but US Military outposts fall under the same provisions as Embassies worldwide and the ground they occupy is sovereign to the nation they represent, ergo it is "native" soil.
The GITMO case is weak in so many ways it shouldn't even be mentioned as a "precedent".
It should also be noted that the 14th amendment was a response to that abomination slavery, the reversal of the Dred Scott decision and was designed to offer all citizens equal rights. Strict constructionists would be well advised to steer clear lest the 12th amendment and the specter of the 2000 electoral college vote be brought to bear. 
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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Big Bore
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Big Bore
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Quote:
That gives me an idea for another thread. If the Supreme Court rules against the president and the Dept. of Justice and he says "kiss my patooty" who enforces it.
= political = delete
I see we have already had a deleted post in this thread (thanks John). Keep it intellectual and it remains, otherwise.....
"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity" - Robert Heinlein
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Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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Ron's prose is quite eloquent. I hope some constitutional aficionados chime in.
Blowing gravel off rural roads
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Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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"Lighten up, Francis."
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"Lighten up, Francis."
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Quote:
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The only parallel I can think of is pregnant Chinese women who "visit" Canada to have their baby, thus granting the child Canadian citizenship and allowing her to stay as the mother of the newly minted Canadian citizen. I suppose technically the child must have dual citizenship, I just never thought about it that way before.
Not a political thread, not a political thread. Don't get me started on this.
Then I guess I better not mention Mexican women who do the same thing here, except illegally... 
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 Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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It wasn't until our 8th President, Martin Van Buren, that we had a President that was born in the USA. The first 7, and number 9, William Henry Harrison, were born in the English Colonies. 
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Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Wherever this ends up going, I'm pretty sure that all 3 branches of the Government consider a person born to US citizens on any military base or any embassy to be "natural born citizens". There has never been any serious contention to that in previous cases (Barry Goldwater, or George Romney), and honestly, it's a bit late in the day for some in the GOP to bring it up now, because, as they say, the horse is out of the barn. IF there were serious problems with his citizenship, they have never been brought to bear during the 2000 election, nor now before he was a contender, so at this point, it seems nothing more than a late attempt by John McCains detractors and bloggers to raise issues for personal gain.(I say that not as a McCain supporter, but just as a personal observation).
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Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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The only parallel I can think of is pregnant Chinese women who "visit" Canada to have their baby, thus granting the child Canadian citizenship and allowing her to stay as the mother of the newly minted Canadian citizen. I suppose technically the child must have dual citizenship, I just never thought about it that way before.
Not a political thread, not a political thread. Don't get me started on this.
Then I guess I better not mention Mexican women who do the same thing here, except illegally...
Glad you said it before me, less chance it will be deleted.
06 America 904
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Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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The only parallel I can think of is pregnant Chinese women who "visit" Canada to have their baby, thus granting the child Canadian citizenship and allowing her to stay as the mother of the newly minted Canadian citizen. I suppose technically the child must have dual citizenship, I just never thought about it that way before.
Not a political thread, not a political thread. Don't get me started on this.
Then I guess I better not mention Mexican women who do the same thing here, except illegally...
Glad you said it before me, less chance it will be deleted.
Yep! But what I wanna know is how the heck are they ever gonna fit "ELECT JUAN JOSE BATISTA MARTINEZ GONZALES LOPEZ DEL LA CRUZ FOR PRESIDENT" all on ONE bumper sticker for the 2020 election??? 
(answer me THAT???!!!)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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The only parallel I can think of is pregnant Chinese women who "visit" Canada to have their baby, thus granting the child Canadian citizenship and allowing her to stay as the mother of the newly minted Canadian citizen. I suppose technically the child must have dual citizenship, I just never thought about it that way before.
Not a political thread, not a political thread. Don't get me started on this.
Then I guess I better not mention Mexican women who do the same thing here, except illegally...
Glad you said it before me, less chance it will be deleted.
Yep! But what I wanna know is how the heck are they ever gonna fit "ELECT JUAN JOSE BATISTA MARTINEZ GONZALES LOPEZ DEL LA CRUZ FOR PRESIDENT" all on ONE bumper sticker for the 2020 election???
(answer me THAT???!!!)
Simple, "I LIKE JUAN"...
Yeah, doesn't really have the same ring as "I LIKE IKE" does it?
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Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.
I'm sure children born to US citizens abroad are natural born citizens as they require no naturalization to become citizens. If it were otherwise they would have to become citizens by studying, taking the test and taking the oath of citizenship.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Yeah! I guess that COULD work alright, Greg, BUT there sure are a heck of a more Juans than ONE out there, and so how would or could ya ever wittle this down to THE one Juan in question so there wouldn't be any confusion in 2020??? (answer me THAT, smart guy!!!) 
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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Quote:
No person except a natural born Citizen
So in an esoteric twist would this rule out those brought forth by caesarean?
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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I dunno! Good question and how bout cloning? It really doesn't matter much. As a matter of fact it matters very little. The purpose was to ensure that future generations would not have "spies" come live here and run for high office to take over the government from within. The first 7 presidents were exempt in the constitution and it is clearly addressed. They lived in the U.S. at the drafting of it. If it were not addressed our first president would have been a baby. Its really not about McCain. I think as a strict constructionist it makes an interesting thread but doesn't change the reality. He is running and nobody is going to stop him from running. The framers wisdom was sound but they had no way to ever dream of our involvement in foreign lands as they wrote extensively against that very behavior.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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It makes for an interesting debate doesn't it? IMO the founders were not strict constructionists to begin with, otherwise the Constitution would be in Latin to avoid multiple meanings that plague the English language. As it is, they left behind a unifying document that can adapt to the changes time brings forward.
A strict constructionist would have thrown out all of Texas electoral votes in 2000 (see the 12th amendment) but again reality allowed the word inhabitant to construed as legal resident. And so it goes.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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(evidently nobody's warned Ed here that thinkin' too much can be a mighty dangerous proposition 'round these here parts!) 
Last edited by Dwight; 02/07/2008 8:47 PM.
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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They were clearly constructionists and were very clear that rights and duties not enumerated belonged to the people and to the states. It is a living document in that they allowed for a clear majority to amend it. It was not open to interpretation but could be amended as times changed and the representatives asserted that change was needed. Justice Scalia would disagree with you as I respectfully do. The Constitution and the amendment process was very simply, genius. For people of that time to think that deeply is remarkable. I know full well they were very flawed in there prejudice against women and views on slaves etc. The very document they drafted allowed for repairing their oversight. Now my head hurts What size jets??
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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Justice Scalia would disagree with you as I respectfully do.
And yet he voted against the constructionist language of the 12th Amendment. Clearly he is influenced by his desires as well as his knowledge and decided to usurp not on the 12th but the 10th as well. Spilt milk now but it shows the true color of his cloth.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Here's a question for you two intelligent gentlemen....
Why does it seem that most so-called "Strict Constitutionists" seem to have no problem at all with the "The Gulf Of Tonkin Resolution" or "The War Powers Act"?
(well, there I go thinkin' again!...sorry gentleman, but I think this question may have just shut down your very interesting conversation...that is if I know anything about how it works around here!!!)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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Adjunct
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Adjunct
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The contructionist non-contructionist debate goes back to the period immediately following the ratification of the original document. The true meaning of the constitution has been argued from the beginning of this country and continues today. That is why we have multiple political parties. People just can't or won't agree as to what the founders meant. To some it is a religion; to others, a way of life; while others simply take it all for granted. One thing is for sure without it this nation wouldn't be the great nation that she is. If we screw it up, this nation, as we know it, ceases to exist.
Its more fun to be ridin'! I'm still ridin
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Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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It is a great debate, isn't it?
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Who is able to be President in the U.S.
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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You got that right, Doc!
But my pointed question above was offered up as to exhibit the juxtaposition of certain self-proclaimed positions, i.e. "Strict Constitutionalist" and "Congress alone shall have the power to declare war...".
(but you know how it is...few people like to have a mirror put up in front of them)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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