Check out the new Gallery
wicked red 1100
wicked red 1100
by mag10, August 21
Windshield I need to replace
Windshield I need to replace
by philwarner, May 10
first ride
first ride
by NemoJr, April 1
Steve McQueen inspired
Steve McQueen inspired
by Feral, November 28
GaRally22
GaRally22
by chy, September 18
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
OnQ program on public television...
#28636 11/23/2005 5:44 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,172
Deon Offline OP
Saddle Sore
OP Offline
Saddle Sore
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,172
Benny, forgive me if this goes nutso....

Monday night, I'm flipping thru the tv channels and I come across an interview on WQED, on the "OnQ" show with a "Mike Seate", regarding motorcycle safety. Supposedly, this Mike guy has been riding for years, that may well be, but his input to this particular show sort of frosted my shorts and twisted my knickers.
Naturally, the subject of helmets came up, and while I don't want to start that debate again, they spouted a few statistics that were essentially lies. They also had a segment showing the extensive helmet testing done by Shoei which consisted of 2 tests which have very little connection to the reality of an actual crash, but instead show how the helmets fare in an artificial situation. They interviewed a biker-doctor and showed film of him riding his bike with his power ranger suit and his full face helmet. His contention was that helmets lessen injuries in accidents, and they added that there is no information to back up the claim that helmets can cause injuries in certain situations. Then they derided the "loud pipes save lives" theory, and then proceeded to deride ABATE of PA. for their successful effort in modifying PA's helmet law...

Then they took a few calls. One was from a representative of ABATE of Pa. who proceeded to tell them their statistical info was bunk and that ABATE did not seek to overturn the helmet law, but sought to regain the freedom of choice. They dismissed him and his info and then the show was over....

Now, I wear a helmet, always have and probably always will..
I also believe that loud pipes, within reason, have got the attention of otherwise occupied cagers. I know for a fact that the volume of my pipes have deterred deer from running out in front of me. I also know for a fact that ABATE of Pa. is in the forefront of championing motorcycle safety including the rider safety courses and seeking to enforce covered load laws for trucks, that are already on the books, to improve highway repair methods to consider motorcycles,not to mention their campaign to raise awareness of the cagers to the increased number of bikes on the road... etc. etc.

I sent OnQ an email regarding all of this. Naturally, I have yet to get a reply....

But what really galls me is how they (public television) can put this slanted, anti-bike b.s. on the air without checking or verifying their facts.....

This post isn't meant to renew the helmet or pipe debates on here. It is just to show how so-called "experts" can spew their views without justifying their sources of information..... I know that helmets can lessen head injuries, but I also know that inexperience, alcohol, attitude, and cagers cause most bike accidents.
The statistics never reflect that......


More flags More fun!
Re: OnQ program on public television...
Deon #28637 11/23/2005 10:05 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,877
Should be Riding
Offline
Should be Riding
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,877
Good post Grump, no harm done for sure!

The scary part of that is there are LOTS of people out there that have a certain source for news/info that they blindly trust/follow, and for lots that is public TV or radio. Like my crunchy hippie Vermont and Maine friends who think everything else BUT public radio is a conspiracy, ya know? I always try to play devil's advocate, to get them to just at least question stuff, not blindly follow, but seems to me this show you are talking about is a prime example. Consider the source... consider the method in which the data was gathered, consider the subject matter... consider everything! There's no such thing as non-biased press anymore... shame really.


Benny Black & Silver '02 Too many mods to list Not enough miles ridden
Re: OnQ program on public television...
Deon #28638 11/23/2005 10:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,537
Check Pants
Offline
Check Pants
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,537
Good job, this stuff makes me made as well. That same Shoei helmet they touted comes with no doubt a Snell rating. Motorcyslist magazine has printed two excellent articles this year that basically shows that to attain the Snell rating, the helmet is bascially created so stoutly that a typical accident will cause brain damage versus an inexpensive DOT rated helmet. Guess the OnQ guy never uncovered those facts either. Unfortunately to the non-motorcyclist, their data/information makes perfect sense and John Q. Public doesn't necessarily trust guys that ride motorcycles in general - they are comfortable taking the word of these type of folks.


Al
Re: OnQ program on public television...
Deon #28639 12/02/2005 4:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 8,639
Likes: 3
Old Hand
Offline
Old Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 8,639
Likes: 3
There are lies, damned lies, and statistics.

A good example was the CHP spouting about how the CA helmet law reduced motorcycle fatalities by 14% the first year. I suppose that is true technically, but only because there was more than twice that reduction in miles ridden. The net number of fatalities per mile of riding had actually increased.


Let's hope there's intelligent life somewhere in space 'cause it's buggar all down here. -- Monte Python
Re: OnQ program on public television...
Greybeard #28640 12/21/2005 11:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,968
Likes: 1
Loquacious
Offline
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,968
Likes: 1
This is the study the NH House of Reps used way back to kill the Helmet Bill. They also used it's recommendations and institued the NH MSA training program.

The Effect of Motorcycle Helmet Use on the Probability of Fatality and the Severity of Head And Neck Injuries
Highlights of Helmet Effectiveness Study

Jonathan P. Goldstein, Ph.D.
Department of Economics
Bowdoin College
Brunswick, Maine 04011


This article evaluates the effectiveness of motorcycle helmets in accident situations. A latent variable model is developed and estimated. It is concluded that (1) motorcycle helmets have no statistically significant effect on the probability of fatality; (2) helmets reduce the severity of head injuries; and (3) past a critical impact speed [13 MPH], helmets increase the severity of neck injuries. Further analysis establishes the qualitative and quantitative nature of the head-neck injury trade-off.

Methodology

1. This study employs standard statistical techniques (regression analysis) to isolate the main determinants of death and injury severity resulting from motorcycle accidents.

2. The data analyzed in this study were provided by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, U.S. Department of Transportation and originally collected by Hurt et al. (1981), contract No. DOT HS-5-01160. These data are currently recognized as the most accurate and detailed available on motorcycle accidents (See pp. 11-12).

3. The effectiveness of helmets and other determinants of death and injury severity are estimated from a causal model. Three variants of one causal model are used to isolate the determinants of: (1) the probability of a fatality; (2) the severity of head injuries; and (3) the severity of neck injuries.

4. The use of a causal model distinguishes the research methodology of this study from previous studies. The advantage of this approach lies in the ability to estimate the separate effects of several simultaneous and interrelated causes of motorcycle fatalities and injury severities (pp. 2-4). Previous studies simply divide accident victims into a helmeted group and non-helmeted group. As a result all differences in fatality rates, injury rates and injury severities between groups are erroneously attributed to helmet use. These comparisons fail to consider other differences between helmet users and non-users which influence the probability of death and the severity of injuries. The most plausible hypothesis is that helmeted riders are more risk-averse and thus: (1) have lower pre-crash and thus crash speeds; and (2) are less likely to combine alcohol consumption and driving. Such behavior, rather than helmet use per se, may dramatically reduce the probability of fatality or the severity of an injury. Only a causal model that considers crash speed, helmet use, alcohol use and other pertinent variables can isolate the separate contribution of each determinant of the severity of injury or probability of death.

Causal Model (pp. 4-8)

1. The causal model considers three broad categories of the causes of death and injury severity. These include factors governed by the laws of physics, physiological factors. and human factors and operator characteristics.

2. The physical factors considered include: the kinetic energy (potential for bodily damage) transferred to the motorcycle operator by the impact, compressibility of the impacted object, helmet use, and possible engineering limitations of helmets (as affected by the impact speed that the helmet is subjected to in the crash).

3. The physiological factors considered include: operator's age, blood alcohol level, drug involvement, and permanent physiological impairment.

4. The human factors and operator characteristics considered include: rider on-road experience, whether the operator had taken the correct evasive action for the particular accident situation, driver training, and the operator's past accident and violation histories.

5. Numerous other determinants were also considered.


Results (pp. 13-18)

1. Helmets are shown to have no statistically significant effect on the probability of a fatality given that a motorcycle accident has occurred. This means that based on standard statistical tests we cannot reject the claim that helmets do not affect the probability that a rider will survive a motorcycle accident.

2. The major determinants of fatality are the rider's crash speed (kinetic energy) and blood alcohol level.

3. For the average rider involved in the average accident, it is found that the probability of death increases from 2.1% to 11.3% when the rider's blood alcohol level increases from 0.0 to 0.1 (from sober to legally intoxicated in most states).

4. In the same vein, an increase in the crash speed from 40 to 60 mph increases the probability of death from 7.1% to 36.3%

5. It is found that helmets have a statistically significant effect in reducing head injury severity. We can reject the hypothesis that helmets have no effect on head injuries in favor of the claim that they reduce head injuries.

6. It is shown that past a critical impact velocity to the helmet (approximately 13 mph), helmet use has a statistically significant effect which increases the severity of neck injuries. Thus we reject the claim that, helmets have no effect on neck injuries in favor of the claim that, past a critical impact speed, they exacerbate neck injuries.

7. As a result of (5) and (6), we establish that a tradeoff between head and neck injuries confronts a potential helmet user. Past a critical impact speed to the helmet (13 mph), which is likely to occur in real life accident situations helmet use reduces the severity of head injuries at the expense of increasing the severity of neck injuries.

8. Further statistical tests reveal the qualitative nature of this tradeoff. It is shown that an individual who wears a helmet and experiences an impact velocity to the head greater than 13 mph may avoid either severe or minor head injuries and incur either severe or minor neck injuries; all permutations of the tradeoff are equally likely to occur.

Policy Implications (pp. 18-20)

1. If a major concern of policy makers is the prevention of fatalities, helmet legislation may not be effective in achieving that objective.

2. If the overall cost to society of motorcycle accidents is the issue, then cost-benefit analyses that adequately consider the tradeoff between head and neck injuries must be conducted before the cost effectiveness of helmets can be determined.

3. Until the injury tradeoff issue is more carefully studied, it cannot be concluded that mandatory helmet use laws are an effective method to eradicate the slaughter and maiming, of individuals involved in motorcycle accidents.

4. A more effective policy approach would be two pronged, including both policies to prevent accidents and policies that effectively reduce the probability of death and the severity of injuries.

5. Policies to prevent accidents include: (1) the education of the general driving public; (2) the education of a younger and more inexperienced population of motorcyclists on the issues of accident avoidance and the proper use and control of high horsepower machines: (3) stricter enforcement of drunk driving laws; and (4) implementation of alcohol awareness programs.

6. Policies to reduce death and injury severity include: stricter enforcement of speed limits. the alcohol related policies suggested in (5) and mandatory driver training and education programs which emphasize the proper execution of evasive action.

Entire Study:

http://www.bikersrights.com/statistics/goldstein/goldstein2.html

Last edited by fishercat; 12/21/2005 11:13 PM.

Live Free or Die Velvet
Re: OnQ program on public television...
Fishercat #28641 12/22/2005 4:35 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,172
Deon Offline OP
Saddle Sore
OP Offline
Saddle Sore
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,172
Thanks...

I may use that sometime...


More flags More fun!
Re: OnQ program on public television...
Fishercat #28642 12/22/2005 1:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,877
Should be Riding
Offline
Should be Riding
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,877
Good article Ron. One thing I always keep in mind is that EVERY crash is different, and any sort of scientific study tends to replicate the same thing over and over. I mean you neck injury severity will depend a lot on how your head is turned when it happens. Did you flinch and look away? Did you look straight on like a deer in headlights? Did you duck? Impossible to completely predict, ya know? But it sounds like they did their homework best they can!!


Benny Black & Silver '02 Too many mods to list Not enough miles ridden

Moderated by  bennybmn, chy, freedom 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Rides
2025 Arkansas Rally
by roadworthy - 04/24/2025 7:57 PM
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4